Analysis of my used ATF (T-IV) after 25,000 miles in '06 Camry with U250E transmission

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Old 30 Jul 2009, 09:08 pm   #1 (permalink)
Built_Well
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Default Analysis of my used ATF (T-IV) after 25,000 miles in '06 Camry with U250E transmission

Here's a copy of the Blackstone Labs report on my factory fill of
Toyota T-IV ATF with 25,000 miles on it (and 25,000 miles on the car).
Both car and oil are 3.5 years old.

I ordered a Total Acid Number (TAN) but didn't order a Total Base
Number (TBN) since a couple people wrote elsewhere that only a TAN is
necessary for the ATF, I guess because no combustion chamber blowby like
unburned fuel, moisture, and soot can get into the tranz. I guess this
also is why makers of ATF don't put nearly as much calcium and
magnesium in ATF as they do motor oil. So a UOA of ATF would show a
very low TBN, which is not a problem like it would be with motor oil.

The ATF that I sent them is 99 percent Toyota T-IV and 1 percent
Mobil 1 Synthetic ATF, since two days before I took the ATF sample for
Blackstone, I had poured in 1 ounce of Mobil 1 ATF (not 1 quart, but one
ounce). I had thought I was a tad low, but I probably wasn't (I just
hadn't checked the ATF when it was hot enough, like after a 30-mile
highway run).

Just like motor oil samples, I think you're suppose to take the ATF sample
mid-stream after it starts pouring out of the pan, but I hastily took the
sample closer to the start than the middle of the stream. Don't know if
that made a difference here.

The transmission in this 2006 4-cylinder Camry LE is the Aisin U250E (the
U151E is used in the V-6). Total ATF capacity is probably 8.5 quarts
but may range between about 7.3 quarts and 8.5 quarts, depending upon
which online figures you believe (I'll bet 8.5 quarts). Total capacity
for the U151E is 9.3 quarts. The drain and refill amount for both the
U250E and U151E is 3.7 quarts.

After I took the Toyota T-IV ATF sample for Blackstone, I did a drain and
refill, adding about 4 quarts of Mobil 1 Synthetic ATF. So right now I
have about a 50/50 mix (probably 45/55 mix) of T-IV and Mobil 1 in the
car, but the numbers in the Blackstone sample below are from an ATF fluid
that is 99 percent Toyota T-IV and just 1 percent Mobil 1, so almost all
T-IV.

Probably 85 percent or more of my driving the past 3.5 years has been city
driving, and about 15 percent has been highway (maybe even 10 percent
highway). Always gentle driving on the streets of Columbia and St. Louis,
Missouri.

Blackstone Labs says, "Our universal averages show typical wear from a
Toyota automatic transmission after an oil run of ~20,000 miles" (so 5
thousand miles less than my 25,000-mile run of the factory fill).

From Blackstone Labs:

Sample date: July 2, 2009.
Miles on ATF oil: 25,000
Miles on car: 25,000

[First number = my sample's results] , [Second number = Universal Averages from a Toyota automatic transmission]

Aluminum 28 , 16
Chromium, 1 , 0
Iron 73 , 38

Copper 17 , 57
Lead 30 , 14
Tin 5 , 2

Molybdenum 0 , 1
Nickel 4 , 0
Manganese 3 , 1

Silver 0 , 0
Titanium 0 , 0
Potassium 0 , 1

Boron 32 , 57
Silicon 27 , 19
Sodium 8 , 4

Calcium 117 , 131
Magnesium 1 , 17
Phosphorus 228 , 297

Zinc 16 , 56
Barium 17 , 3

MY RESULTS // VALUES SHOULD BE

SUS Viscosity @ 210* F = 46.7 // 43 - 51
cSt Viscosity @ 100* C = 6.26 // 5.1 - 7.9
Flashpoint in *F = 360 // > 335
Fuel % = --
Antifreeze % = --
Water % = 0.0 // < 0.1
Insolubles % = 0.0 // < 0.1

TBN =
TAN = 1.9
==========

I'm posting the report here so I don't lose it. I also
posted at BobIsTheOilGuy.com , but their backup and archiving
can't be as robust as Google's archiving of the Usenet.


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Old 30 Jul 2009, 09:19 pm   #2 (permalink)
Jeff Strickland
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Default Re: Analysis of my used ATF (T-IV) after 25,000 miles in '06 Camry with U250E transmission


"Built_Well" <Built_Well_Toyota@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:4a72524b$0$28125$892e0abb@auth.newsreader.oct anews.com...
> Here's a copy of the Blackstone Labs report on my factory fill of
> Toyota T-IV ATF with 25,000 miles on it (and 25,000 miles on the car).
> Both car and oil are 3.5 years old.
>
> I ordered a Total Acid Number (TAN) but didn't order a Total Base
> Number (TBN) since a couple people wrote elsewhere that only a TAN is
> necessary for the ATF, I guess because no combustion chamber blowby like
> unburned fuel, moisture, and soot can get into the tranz. I guess this
> also is why makers of ATF don't put nearly as much calcium and
> magnesium in ATF as they do motor oil. So a UOA of ATF would show a
> very low TBN, which is not a problem like it would be with motor oil.
>
> The ATF that I sent them is 99 percent Toyota T-IV and 1 percent
> Mobil 1 Synthetic ATF, since two days before I took the ATF sample for
> Blackstone, I had poured in 1 ounce of Mobil 1 ATF (not 1 quart, but one
> ounce). I had thought I was a tad low, but I probably wasn't (I just
> hadn't checked the ATF when it was hot enough, like after a 30-mile
> highway run).
>


Why would you even bother pouring in an ounce of fluid into any of the many
holes that fluid should be poured into? An ounce of fluid is less than the
plus/minus range of a fully filled condition. You can't even measure an
ounce on the dipstick! You can't measure a cup on many of the fluids, the
transmission fluid among them.



> Just like motor oil samples, I think you're suppose to take the ATF sample
> mid-stream after it starts pouring out of the pan, but I hastily took the
> sample closer to the start than the middle of the stream. Don't know if
> that made a difference here.
>


If the fluid was warm when you collected the sample, it won't matter because
it will be all mixed up anyhow.

There are far too many strange statements about adding an ounce, partial
fills, and so on. I can't take it anymore ...






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Old 30 Jul 2009, 09:29 pm   #3 (permalink)
Armand Hammer
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Default Re: Analysis of my used ATF (T-IV) after 25,000 miles in '06 Camrywith U250E transmission

Jeff Strickland wrote:
> "Built_Well" <Built_Well_Toyota@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:4a72524b$0$28125$892e0abb@auth.newsreader.oct anews.com...
>> Here's a copy of the Blackstone Labs report on my factory fill of
>> Toyota T-IV ATF with 25,000 miles on it (and 25,000 miles on the car).
>> Both car and oil are 3.5 years old.
>>
>> I ordered a Total Acid Number (TAN) but didn't order a Total Base
>> Number (TBN) since a couple people wrote elsewhere that only a TAN is
>> necessary for the ATF, I guess because no combustion chamber blowby like
>> unburned fuel, moisture, and soot can get into the tranz. I guess this
>> also is why makers of ATF don't put nearly as much calcium and
>> magnesium in ATF as they do motor oil. So a UOA of ATF would show a
>> very low TBN, which is not a problem like it would be with motor oil.
>>
>> The ATF that I sent them is 99 percent Toyota T-IV and 1 percent
>> Mobil 1 Synthetic ATF, since two days before I took the ATF sample for
>> Blackstone, I had poured in 1 ounce of Mobil 1 ATF (not 1 quart, but one
>> ounce). I had thought I was a tad low, but I probably wasn't (I just
>> hadn't checked the ATF when it was hot enough, like after a 30-mile
>> highway run).
>>

>
> Why would you even bother pouring in an ounce of fluid into any of the many
> holes that fluid should be poured into? An ounce of fluid is less than the
> plus/minus range of a fully filled condition. You can't even measure an
> ounce on the dipstick! You can't measure a cup on many of the fluids, the
> transmission fluid among them.
>
>


HOW ABOUT THE HOLES THAT YOU POUR FLUID INTO?

TISK TISK TISK.



>
>> Just like motor oil samples, I think you're suppose to take the ATF sample
>> mid-stream after it starts pouring out of the pan, but I hastily took the
>> sample closer to the start than the middle of the stream. Don't know if
>> that made a difference here.
>>

>
> If the fluid was warm when you collected the sample, it won't matter because
> it will be all mixed up anyhow.
>
> There are far too many strange statements about adding an ounce, partial
> fills, and so on. I can't take it anymore ...
>
>
>
>
>
>

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Old 30 Jul 2009, 09:33 pm   #4 (permalink)
Built_Well
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Default Re: Analysis of my used ATF (T-IV) after 25,000 miles in '06 Camry with U250E transmission

Jeff Strickland wrote:

> Why would you even bother pouring in an ounce of fluid into any of the
> many holes that fluid should be poured into? An ounce of fluid is less
> than the plus/minus range of a fully filled condition. You can't even
> measure an ounce on the dipstick! You can't measure a cup on many of the
> fluids, the transmission fluid among them.
> [....]
>
> If the fluid was warm when you collected the sample, it won't matter
> because it will be all mixed up anyhow.
>
> There are far too many strange statements about adding an ounce, partial
> fills, and so on. I can't take it anymore ...

=========

Jeff, rest peacefully, my friend. I don't want to hammer you, but I will
if I must. Fair warning for you. You fellas ought to learn to be more
polite on the Usenet.
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Old 30 Jul 2009, 09:55 pm   #5 (permalink)
FatMoe
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Default Re: Analysis of my used ATF (T-IV) after 25,000 miles in '06 Camrywith U250E transmission

Built_Well wrote:
> Jeff Strickland wrote:
>
>> Why would you even bother pouring in an ounce of fluid into any of the
>> many holes that fluid should be poured into? An ounce of fluid is less
>> than the plus/minus range of a fully filled condition. You can't even
>> measure an ounce on the dipstick! You can't measure a cup on many of the
>> fluids, the transmission fluid among them.
>> [....]
>>
>> If the fluid was warm when you collected the sample, it won't matter
>> because it will be all mixed up anyhow.
>>
>> There are far too many strange statements about adding an ounce, partial
>> fills, and so on. I can't take it anymore ...

> =========
>
> Jeff, rest peacefully, my friend. I don't want to hammer you, but I will
> if I must. Fair warning for you. You fellas ought to learn to be more
> polite on the Usenet.


I couldn't agree more, ma'am.
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Old 30 Jul 2009, 10:44 pm   #6 (permalink)
Jeff Strickland
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Default Re: Analysis of my used ATF (T-IV) after 25,000 miles in '06 Camry with U250E transmission


"Built_Well" <Built_Well_Toyota@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:4a7257ed$0$79705$892e0abb@auth.newsreader.oct anews.com...
> Jeff Strickland wrote:
>
>> Why would you even bother pouring in an ounce of fluid into any of the
>> many holes that fluid should be poured into? An ounce of fluid is less
>> than the plus/minus range of a fully filled condition. You can't even
>> measure an ounce on the dipstick! You can't measure a cup on many of the
>> fluids, the transmission fluid among them.
>> [....]
>>
>> If the fluid was warm when you collected the sample, it won't matter
>> because it will be all mixed up anyhow.
>>
>> There are far too many strange statements about adding an ounce, partial
>> fills, and so on. I can't take it anymore ...

> =========
>
> Jeff, rest peacefully, my friend. I don't want to hammer you, but I will
> if I must. Fair warning for you. You fellas ought to learn to be more
> polite on the Usenet.


Painful as it sounds, it's the truth, I'm confused.

If you think an ounce will fill the transmissioin, it's already full. Even
the brake reservior is full if all it can hold is another ounce.

And a 50/50 mix of synthetic transmission fluid? What's up with that?
There's no point. If you can't drain and fill completely with synthetic,
refill with regular trans fluid and call it a day.

That's all I'm saying. Well, since you asked, postinig the results of the
testing here for archival purposes is a bit misguided too. But that's
another rant that I'll save.






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Old 30 Jul 2009, 11:20 pm   #7 (permalink)
john
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Default Re: Analysis of my used ATF (T-IV) after 25,000 miles in '06 Camrywith U250E transmission

So your additives are lower than average (K, Ca, B), while wear
particles are higher than average (Al, Cr, Fe, Pb, Sn, except Cu).

Either the transmission design stinks or the dino ATF isn't up to the
task (at *only* 25K miles for a lifetime fluid ). I'd glad
you're going with Mobil-1 fully synthetic. See if after another 20K
miles your wear counts lower. Good luck!!





On Jul 30, 7:08*pm, Built_Well <Built_Well_Toy...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> [First number = my sample's results] , [Second number = Universal Averages from a Toyota automatic transmission]
>
> Aluminum 28 , 16
> Chromium, 1 , 0
> Iron 73 , 38
>
> Copper 17 , 57
> Lead 30 , 14
> Tin 5 , 2
>
> Molybdenum 0 , 1
> Nickel 4 , 0
> Manganese 3 , 1
>
> Silver 0 , 0
> Titanium 0 , 0
> Potassium 0 , 1
>
> Boron 32 , 57
> Silicon 27 , 19
> Sodium 8 , 4
>
> Calcium 117 , 131
> Magnesium 1 , 17
> Phosphorus 228 , 297
>
> Zinc 16 , 56
> Barium 17 , 3
>
> MY RESULTS // VALUES SHOULD BE
>
> SUS Viscosity @ 210* F = 46.7 // 43 - 51
> cSt Viscosity @ 100* C = 6.26 // 5.1 - 7.9
> Flashpoint in *F = 360 // > 335
> Fuel % = --
> Antifreeze % = --
> Water % = 0.0 // < 0.1
> Insolubles % = 0.0 // < 0.1
>
> TBN =
> TAN = 1.9

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Old 31 Jul 2009, 11:42 am   #8 (permalink)
Richard W.
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Default Re: Analysis of my used ATF (T-IV) after 25,000 miles in '06 Camry with U250E transmission


"Built_Well" <Built_Well_Toyota@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:4a72524b$0$28125$892e0abb@auth.newsreader.oct anews.com...
> Here's a copy of the Blackstone Labs report on my factory fill of
> Toyota T-IV ATF with 25,000 miles on it (and 25,000 miles on the car).
> Both car and oil are 3.5 years old.
>
> I ordered a Total Acid Number (TAN) but didn't order a Total Base
> Number (TBN) since a couple people wrote elsewhere that only a TAN is
> necessary for the ATF, I guess because no combustion chamber blowby like
> unburned fuel, moisture, and soot can get into the tranz. I guess this
> also is why makers of ATF don't put nearly as much calcium and
> magnesium in ATF as they do motor oil. So a UOA of ATF would show a
> very low TBN, which is not a problem like it would be with motor oil.
>
> The ATF that I sent them is 99 percent Toyota T-IV and 1 percent
> Mobil 1 Synthetic ATF, since two days before I took the ATF sample for
> Blackstone, I had poured in 1 ounce of Mobil 1 ATF (not 1 quart, but one
> ounce). I had thought I was a tad low, but I probably wasn't (I just
> hadn't checked the ATF when it was hot enough, like after a 30-mile
> highway run).
>
> Just like motor oil samples, I think you're suppose to take the ATF sample
> mid-stream after it starts pouring out of the pan, but I hastily took the
> sample closer to the start than the middle of the stream. Don't know if
> that made a difference here.
>
> The transmission in this 2006 4-cylinder Camry LE is the Aisin U250E (the
> U151E is used in the V-6). Total ATF capacity is probably 8.5 quarts
> but may range between about 7.3 quarts and 8.5 quarts, depending upon
> which online figures you believe (I'll bet 8.5 quarts). Total capacity
> for the U151E is 9.3 quarts. The drain and refill amount for both the
> U250E and U151E is 3.7 quarts.
>


This tell you only changed half the fluid, not all of it. Why did you do
that?

Some factory car manuals tell you to disconnect a transmission line at the
radiator, put a rubber hose on it so you can run it to a drain pan. Start
the engine and let it run until the fluid stops. Turn the engine off and add
3 or 4 quarts and run the engine again. Do this several times until you see
clean fluid. Reconnect the transmission line add fluid and idle the engine
and recheck fluid and fill as necessary. Changing your transmission fluid
this way is the same as a power flush you would pay about $100 for at an oil
change station. Also doing it this way changes all the fluid in the
transmission including what's in the torque converter.

I learned about this method after paying $99.95 to the Vavoline oil change
station. The transmission shifted much better. When I was talking about it
at work one of the guys told me to do it as I wrote above. He got it from
his factory Volvo manual. Every time my transmission starts to act up, I
change the fluid and it works fine again. My transmission has 186,000 miles
on it and counting with out ever being rebuilt.

Richard W.


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Old 31 Jul 2009, 07:09 pm   #9 (permalink)
Bob Jones
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Default Re: Analysis of my used ATF (T-IV) after 25,000 miles in '06 Camry with U250E transmission


> "john" <johngdole@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:f7b3aed3-4753-49ad-8240-5a93667ac6c3@a37g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
> So your additives are lower than average (K, Ca, B), while wear
> particles are higher than average (Al, Cr, Fe, Pb, Sn, except Cu).


> Either the transmission design stinks or the dino ATF isn't up to the
> task (at *only* 25K miles for a lifetime fluid ). I'd glad
> you're going with Mobil-1 fully synthetic. See if after another 20K
> miles your wear counts lower. Good luck!!


25K is a little low. Transmission fluid only needs to be changed every 60K,
on late model cars anyway.


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Old 02 Aug 2009, 07:37 am   #10 (permalink)
Built_Well
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Default Re: Analysis of my used ATF (T-IV) after 25,000 miles in '06 Camry with U250E transmission

John G. Dole wrote:

> So your additives are lower than average (K, Ca, B), while wear particles
> are higher than average (Al, Cr, Fe, Pb, Sn, except Cu).
>
> Either the transmission design stinks or the dino ATF isn't up to the task
> (at *only* 25K miles for a lifetime fluid ). I'd glad you're going
> with Mobil-1 fully synthetic. See if after another 20K miles your wear
> counts lower. Good luck!!

========

John, I can appreciate your unorthodox approach to transmission fluid, but
I am returning to the fundamentals, namely following the manufacturer's
advice to use the OEM ATF.

In response to what I've read at BobIsTheOilGuy.com, I decided to give
Mobil 1 ATF a chance, so I've had an even mixture of Toyota T-IV and
Mobil 1 ATF in the car for 3 weeks now, but my shifting has not been an
improvement over the prior 100-percent T-IV makeup of the ATF.

I'm very happy with the choice I made to use a very high quality,
non-API certified 0w-30 synthetic motor oil in my engine, and I'm glad
I veered from the OEM's recommendation there, but veering from the OEM's
recommendation for ATF has not been as successful. I gave it a fair try,
but the Mobil 1 has not improved my shifting over the T-IV. Actually, the
shifting was better with T-IV.

To answer someone's question, I arrived at the 50/50 mixture of T-IV and
Mobil 1 by simply doing a drain-and-refill of the pan, but to return
things to the OEM-specified T-IV condition, I'll be doing an at-home ATF
oil cooler hose flush later this week. The D.I.Y. flush will remove more
of the Mobil 1 than a simple drain and fill. Newbies can read how the
flush is done in my alt.autos.toyota thread titled "Simple procedure for
Transmission Flush" which I posted a month or two ago.


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