Catastrophic Oil Loss

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Old 04 Sep 2009, 08:46 pm   #1 (permalink)
bosco1003
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Default Catastrophic Oil Loss

I have a 99 Camry, 4 cylinder, with approximately 144k miles. On 21
Jul 2009, I visited a local oil change shop that I used for years and
had my oil/filter changed. I drove about 4 to 5 miles and noticed the
engine stumbled briefly, or lost power, twice. I immediately checked
my instrument panel and noted the engine oil light was red. In an
instant, I turned the engine off and pulled over. The oil filter was
off because the tech mounted the wrong size and I lost most of my
oil. I called the oil change place and reported the problem. The car
was towed to a Toyota dealer where the engine oil/filter was
replaced. The mechanic heard no knocks or noise and pronounced that
he was 99 percent sure there was no internal engine damage, but
couldn't be certain without disassembling the engine. He also said
there was just enough oil in the pan to keep the bearings lubricated.
I've noted a few brief episodes of the engine stumbling or brief
losses of power since the event. I've been checking the oil regularly
and note that I've lost over a quart in the 2700 miles I've traveled
since the event, about twice the loss rate that existed before the
event. Today I did some research and am a bit miffed to learn that
such an event could damage the oil pump, valves, camshaft, rod and
crankshaft bearings, crankshaft, pistons, scoring of cylinder walls,
and worst case engine seizure. I'm covered as the oil change place
owner guaranteed, in writing, he would repair any damage that became
obvious within 5,000 miles of the event. I fear that as soon as the
5,000 miles are exhausted, the engine will fail or quit running.
Barring tearing down the engine, what should I insist be done to cover
my rear? I've covered by my auto insurance and the insurance of the
oil change station. Should I ask for a "leak down test" or some other
diagnostic procedure...or let them "tear it down"? Just as sure as I
ignore problem, my engine will fail.
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Old 05 Sep 2009, 05:20 am   #2 (permalink)
Leftie
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Default Re: Catastrophic Oil Loss

bosco1003 wrote:
> I have a 99 Camry, 4 cylinder, with approximately 144k miles. On 21
> Jul 2009, I visited a local oil change shop that I used for years and
> had my oil/filter changed. I drove about 4 to 5 miles and noticed the
> engine stumbled briefly, or lost power, twice. I immediately checked
> my instrument panel and noted the engine oil light was red. In an
> instant, I turned the engine off and pulled over. The oil filter was
> off because the tech mounted the wrong size and I lost most of my
> oil. I called the oil change place and reported the problem. The car
> was towed to a Toyota dealer where the engine oil/filter was
> replaced. The mechanic heard no knocks or noise and pronounced that
> he was 99 percent sure there was no internal engine damage, but
> couldn't be certain without disassembling the engine. He also said
> there was just enough oil in the pan to keep the bearings lubricated.
> I've noted a few brief episodes of the engine stumbling or brief
> losses of power since the event. I've been checking the oil regularly
> and note that I've lost over a quart in the 2700 miles I've traveled
> since the event, about twice the loss rate that existed before the
> event. Today I did some research and am a bit miffed to learn that
> such an event could damage the oil pump, valves, camshaft, rod and
> crankshaft bearings, crankshaft, pistons, scoring of cylinder walls,
> and worst case engine seizure. I'm covered as the oil change place
> owner guaranteed, in writing, he would repair any damage that became
> obvious within 5,000 miles of the event. I fear that as soon as the
> 5,000 miles are exhausted, the engine will fail or quit running.
> Barring tearing down the engine, what should I insist be done to cover
> my rear? I've covered by my auto insurance and the insurance of the
> oil change station. Should I ask for a "leak down test" or some other
> diagnostic procedure...or let them "tear it down"? Just as sure as I
> ignore problem, my engine will fail.



You could try a leakdown test. You can also switch to the lightest
oil the manual suggests and document oil consumption. I suppose you have
to, ironically, hope for blue smoke...
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Old 05 Sep 2009, 01:19 pm   #3 (permalink)
ransley
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Default Re: Catastrophic Oil Loss

On Sep 4, 8:46*pm, bosco1003 <bosco4...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I have a 99 Camry, 4 cylinder, with approximately 144k miles. *On 21
> Jul 2009, I visited a local oil change shop that I used for years and
> had my oil/filter changed. I drove about 4 to 5 miles and noticed the
> engine stumbled briefly, or lost power, twice. I immediately checked
> my instrument panel and noted the engine oil light was red. In an
> instant, I turned the engine off and pulled over. The oil filter was
> off because the tech mounted the wrong size and I lost most of my
> oil. *I called the oil change place and reported the problem. The car
> was towed to a Toyota dealer where the engine oil/filter was
> replaced. *The mechanic heard no knocks or noise and pronounced that
> he was 99 percent sure there was no internal engine damage, but
> couldn't be certain without disassembling the engine. He also said
> there was just enough oil in the pan to keep the bearings lubricated.
> I've noted a few brief episodes of the engine stumbling or brief
> losses of power since the event. I've been checking the oil regularly
> and note that I've lost over a quart in the 2700 miles I've traveled
> since the event, about twice the loss rate that existed before the
> event. Today I did some research and am a bit miffed to learn that
> such an event could damage the oil pump, valves, camshaft, rod and
> crankshaft bearings, crankshaft, pistons, scoring of cylinder walls,
> and worst case engine seizure. I'm covered as the oil change place
> owner guaranteed, in writing, he would repair any damage that became
> obvious within 5,000 miles of the event. *I fear that as soon as the
> 5,000 miles are exhausted, the engine will fail or quit running.
> Barring tearing down the engine, what should I insist be done to cover
> my rear? I've covered by my auto insurance and the insurance of the
> oil change station. *Should I ask for a "leak down test" or some other
> diagnostic procedure...or let them "tear it down"? Just as sure as I
> ignore problem, my engine will fail.


You deserve a new motor and rental, in 5 minutes about 50-150,000
miles of wear occured with No Oil, yes internaly it melted metal to
wear away fast. If they rebuild it it wont be the same as a what you
had and you have no guarntee they will do it right. You are better
getting it replaced. There are slightly used motors sometimes
avalaible as my mom totaled a Corolla with 256 miles on it. A rebuild
will probably cost more in the long run for you with the headaches you
could endure from mistakes, like leaks.I would want a running motor,
not somebody taking it apart, putting parts around collecting dirt
that is bad for it.
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Old 05 Sep 2009, 05:03 pm   #4 (permalink)
mikewestvale
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Default Re: Catastrophic Oil Loss

On Sep 4, 9:46*pm, bosco1003 <bosco4...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I have a 99 Camry, 4 cylinder, with approximately 144k miles. *On 21
> Jul 2009, I visited a local oil change shop that I used for years and
> had my oil/filter changed. I drove about 4 to 5 miles and noticed the
> engine stumbled briefly, or lost power, twice. I immediately checked
> my instrument panel and noted the engine oil light was red. In an
> instant, I turned the engine off and pulled over. The oil filter was
> off because the tech mounted the wrong size and I lost most of my
> oil. *I called the oil change place and reported the problem. The car
> was towed to a Toyota dealer where the engine oil/filter was
> replaced. *The mechanic heard no knocks or noise and pronounced that
> he was 99 percent sure there was no internal engine damage, but
> couldn't be certain without disassembling the engine. He also said
> there was just enough oil in the pan to keep the bearings lubricated.
> I've noted a few brief episodes of the engine stumbling or brief
> losses of power since the event. I've been checking the oil regularly
> and note that I've lost over a quart in the 2700 miles I've traveled
> since the event, about twice the loss rate that existed before the
> event. Today I did some research and am a bit miffed to learn that
> such an event could damage the oil pump, valves, camshaft, rod and
> crankshaft bearings, crankshaft, pistons, scoring of cylinder walls,
> and worst case engine seizure. I'm covered as the oil change place
> owner guaranteed, in writing, he would repair any damage that became
> obvious within 5,000 miles of the event. *I fear that as soon as the
> 5,000 miles are exhausted, the engine will fail or quit running.
> Barring tearing down the engine, what should I insist be done to cover
> my rear? I've covered by my auto insurance and the insurance of the
> oil change station. *Should I ask for a "leak down test" or some other
> diagnostic procedure...or let them "tear it down"? Just as sure as I
> ignore problem, my engine will fail.


Looks like you got said oil change joint by the short and hairies on
this one. Being the car is a 99 why not ask for a cash settlement of
something like the price of a new engine then trade the car in. I am
sure you could get 3 or 4 grand and that's more than the car is worth
on the market today.
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Old 07 Sep 2009, 09:59 am   #5 (permalink)
MLD
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Default Re: Catastrophic Oil Loss


"mikewestvale" <mikewestvale@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:e2fa1808-0794-4cb1-814f-bab5d3d30530@s31g2000yqs.googlegroups.com...
On Sep 4, 9:46 pm, bosco1003 <bosco4...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I have a 99 Camry, 4 cylinder, with approximately 144k miles. On 21
> Jul 2009, I visited a local oil change shop that I used for years and
> had my oil/filter changed. I drove about 4 to 5 miles and noticed the
> engine stumbled briefly, or lost power, twice. I immediately checked
> my instrument panel and noted the engine oil light was red. In an
> instant, I turned the engine off and pulled over. The oil filter was
> off because the tech mounted the wrong size and I lost most of my
> oil. I called the oil change place and reported the problem. The car
> was towed to a Toyota dealer where the engine oil/filter was
> replaced. The mechanic heard no knocks or noise and pronounced that
> he was 99 percent sure there was no internal engine damage, but
> couldn't be certain without disassembling the engine. He also said
> there was just enough oil in the pan to keep the bearings lubricated.
> I've noted a few brief episodes of the engine stumbling or brief
> losses of power since the event. I've been checking the oil regularly
> and note that I've lost over a quart in the 2700 miles I've traveled
> since the event, about twice the loss rate that existed before the
> event. Today I did some research and am a bit miffed to learn that
> such an event could damage the oil pump, valves, camshaft, rod and
> crankshaft bearings, crankshaft, pistons, scoring of cylinder walls,
> and worst case engine seizure. I'm covered as the oil change place
> owner guaranteed, in writing, he would repair any damage that became
> obvious within 5,000 miles of the event. I fear that as soon as the
> 5,000 miles are exhausted, the engine will fail or quit running.
> Barring tearing down the engine, what should I insist be done to cover
> my rear? I've covered by my auto insurance and the insurance of the
> oil change station. Should I ask for a "leak down test" or some other
> diagnostic procedure...or let them "tear it down"? Just as sure as I
> ignore problem, my engine will fail.


Looks like you got said oil change joint by the short and hairies on
this one. Being the car is a 99 why not ask for a cash settlement of
something like the price of a new engine then trade the car in. I am
sure you could get 3 or 4 grand and that's more than the car is worth
on the market today.

Boy, I agree. Document your oil consumption, get a written assessment from
a qualified mechanic (Toyota Dealer) relative to the possible damage and the
need for a teardown. Get the best settlement you can and then trade the
car. The engine is now an accident waiting to happen--it's a matter of
when.
MLD

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Old 07 Sep 2009, 11:39 pm   #6 (permalink)
Leftie
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Default Re: Catastrophic Oil Loss

MLD wrote:
>
> "mikewestvale" <mikewestvale@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:e2fa1808-0794-4cb1-814f-bab5d3d30530@s31g2000yqs.googlegroups.com...
> On Sep 4, 9:46 pm, bosco1003 <bosco4...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> I have a 99 Camry, 4 cylinder, with approximately 144k miles. On 21
>> Jul 2009, I visited a local oil change shop that I used for years and
>> had my oil/filter changed. I drove about 4 to 5 miles and noticed the
>> engine stumbled briefly, or lost power, twice. I immediately checked
>> my instrument panel and noted the engine oil light was red. In an
>> instant, I turned the engine off and pulled over. The oil filter was
>> off because the tech mounted the wrong size and I lost most of my
>> oil. I called the oil change place and reported the problem. The car
>> was towed to a Toyota dealer where the engine oil/filter was
>> replaced. The mechanic heard no knocks or noise and pronounced that
>> he was 99 percent sure there was no internal engine damage, but
>> couldn't be certain without disassembling the engine. He also said
>> there was just enough oil in the pan to keep the bearings lubricated.
>> I've noted a few brief episodes of the engine stumbling or brief
>> losses of power since the event. I've been checking the oil regularly
>> and note that I've lost over a quart in the 2700 miles I've traveled
>> since the event, about twice the loss rate that existed before the
>> event. Today I did some research and am a bit miffed to learn that
>> such an event could damage the oil pump, valves, camshaft, rod and
>> crankshaft bearings, crankshaft, pistons, scoring of cylinder walls,
>> and worst case engine seizure. I'm covered as the oil change place
>> owner guaranteed, in writing, he would repair any damage that became
>> obvious within 5,000 miles of the event. I fear that as soon as the
>> 5,000 miles are exhausted, the engine will fail or quit running.
>> Barring tearing down the engine, what should I insist be done to cover
>> my rear? I've covered by my auto insurance and the insurance of the
>> oil change station. Should I ask for a "leak down test" or some other
>> diagnostic procedure...or let them "tear it down"? Just as sure as I
>> ignore problem, my engine will fail.

>
> Looks like you got said oil change joint by the short and hairies on
> this one. Being the car is a 99 why not ask for a cash settlement of
> something like the price of a new engine then trade the car in. I am
> sure you could get 3 or 4 grand and that's more than the car is worth
> on the market today.
>
> Boy, I agree. Document your oil consumption, get a written assessment
> from a qualified mechanic (Toyota Dealer) relative to the possible
> damage and the need for a teardown. Get the best settlement you can and
> then trade the car. The engine is now an accident waiting to
> happen--it's a matter of when.
> MLD



Just thought I'd chime in with the *ethical* solution: get the money
for a rebuilt engine, and then...get a rebuilt engine installed, or a
used one. Don't pass the car along to bankrupt some poor sap down the line.
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Old 15 Sep 2009, 01:41 pm   #7 (permalink)
hls
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Default Re: Catastrophic Oil Loss


"ransley" <Mark_Ransley@Yahoo.com> wrote in message news:414977e9-8fd6-

You deserve a new motor and rental, in 5 minutes about 50-150,000
miles of wear occured with No Oil, yes internaly it melted metal to
wear away fast.

*******Can you cite credible sources on these figures?



If they rebuild it it wont be the same as a what you
had and you have no guarntee they will do it right.

*******It is possible to remanufacture an engine to a condition as good
as or better than new...But you are correct in that you have no proof
that this level of competence will result.


You are better
getting it replaced. There are slightly used motors sometimes
avalaible as my mom totaled a Corolla with 256 miles on it. A rebuild
will probably cost more in the long run for you with the headaches you
could endure from mistakes, like leaks.I would want a running motor,
not somebody taking it apart, putting parts around collecting dirt
that is bad for it.

********Sometimes you can get a really good engine out of a junker.
They dont come too cheap, maybe. And you dont know if some shithead
ran it without oil changes, or dogged it, or what.

The truth, in this situation, I am afraid is that it will be very
difficult - if not
impossible - to prove that any significant damage was done. Even on new
cars, some brands have called oil usage of 1000 miles per quart, or higher,
within normal limits.

This is the reason I change my own oil on our Avalon and Solara convertible.
What kind of mechanic do you think works at this sort of an oil change
emporium?? Not the top of the line, I assure you.

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Old 21 Sep 2009, 02:07 pm   #8 (permalink)
hls
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Default Re: Catastrophic Oil Loss


"ransley" <Mark_Ransley@Yahoo.com> wrote in message news:414977e9-8fd6-
You deserve a new motor and rental, in 5 minutes about 50-150,000
miles of wear occured with No Oil, yes internaly it melted metal to
wear away fast.

I have heard this kind of figures bandied about for years, but nobody ever
cites a source.

I did a google on it, and found the following:
http://www.arizonaccca.com/technical...g%20gas%20tank

But read carefully....the cause of the wear may not be the loss of
lubrication,
but the corrosive effects of gases in the system during startup. They say
that each startup is roughly equivalent to "500 miles of.. .. driving".

Ah so...corrosion rather than abrasion??? Maybe.

It has been reported many times that, according to the accursed oil
analyses,
iron content (indicating "wear"?) is greater right after an oil change than
in the
weeks following....Some say this is a reason not to change oil so
frequently.

Might it be that the innards of an engine are filled with atmospheric oxygen
during
the change, and the initial indications of wear are instead the effects of
initial
corrosion? Maybe.. I dont know. If someone would run a test by
performing
the oil change, flushing the block with nitrogen, and repeating the tests,
maybe
we could explain this previously curious phenomenon.

NACE, where do you stand on the wear versus corrosion issue? (This is
tongue in cheek.. NACE members should know why....)

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