Request opinions on my sort-of-new Accord

Otis

General questions which is why I included five NG's.

I've actually had the car for almost a year (bought 9-25-08).

The car had a mild steering wheel shimmy at 60-70 mph that
I noticed driving it home from the dealership the day I bought it.
The car had not been sitting on the lot long ( a week or so, being
recently delivered), so I doubt there were flat spots on the tires.
I decided to let it go and forget about it. Still, you don't expect
this with a brand new car with six miles on it and equipped with
Michelins. The shimmy pretty much stayed, but as I said,
it is mild. I rotated the tires at about 6500 miles a couple of
months ago, which is when the little Honda Maintenance Minder
told me to (cross to front as the manual said).

Since then, I've noticed that, along with the usual shimmy, it gets
a good deal worse when I press the brake at highway speeds.
I doubt very seriously that the rotors are warped, but that the wheels
were somehow not completely balanced at the factory. And maybe
crossing the tires at rotation made the effect worse. That's my
guess.
I took the car out to the dlership today, explained, and the guy
wanted
to check the brakes (he said three hours for some reason) and possibly
*turn* the rotors. Why? I've never had rotors turned in my life;
if they
got too grooved I'd just replace them. Considering the time, and his
talking about turning rotors, I decided to hold off for now. Do you
think
I should take the car in and have them at least check the balance
on the wheels (free till the 1 year anniversary of purchase)? I could
just see those guys working on the car, and driving off with it
*worse*
than before. I've had this happen occasionally over the years.

And a-n-o-t-h-e-r thing.....

I was recently talking casually to a guy who runs a body shop. We
were near my Accord and he immediately mentioned that the gap
between the hood and fender on the left was not the same as the
corresponding gap on the right side of the hood. And sure enough,
it wasn't, and very noticeable even though I never noticed. He said
that was very unusual for Honda and even asked me if the car had
been wrecked. Pic link below. There is sunlight reflection a
little
on the left gap, but you should still be able to see it. The gap on
left is noticeably bigger than the one on the right. The hood
opens and closes nicely and everything seems tight and right,
but it does look kind of bad. What do you guys think? Should
I complain to Honda about it? Thanks a lot.

http://s603.photobucket.com/albums/t...t=GEDC0178.jpg

dsi1

Otis wrote:
> General questions which is why I included five NG's.
>
> I've actually had the car for almost a year (bought 9-25-08).
>
> The car had a mild steering wheel shimmy at 60-70 mph that
> I noticed driving it home from the dealership the day I bought it.
> The car had not been sitting on the lot long ( a week or so, being
> recently delivered), so I doubt there were flat spots on the tires.
> I decided to let it go and forget about it. Still, you don't expect
> this with a brand new car with six miles on it and equipped with
> Michelins. The shimmy pretty much stayed, but as I said,
> it is mild. I rotated the tires at about 6500 miles a couple of
> months ago, which is when the little Honda Maintenance Minder
> told me to (cross to front as the manual said).
>
> Since then, I've noticed that, along with the usual shimmy, it gets
> a good deal worse when I press the brake at highway speeds.
> I doubt very seriously that the rotors are warped, but that the wheels
> were somehow not completely balanced at the factory. And maybe
> crossing the tires at rotation made the effect worse. That's my
> guess.
> I took the car out to the dlership today, explained, and the guy
> wanted
> to check the brakes (he said three hours for some reason) and possibly
> *turn* the rotors. Why? I've never had rotors turned in my life;
> if they
> got too grooved I'd just replace them. Considering the time, and his
> talking about turning rotors, I decided to hold off for now. Do you
> think
> I should take the car in and have them at least check the balance
> on the wheels (free till the 1 year anniversary of purchase)? I could
> just see those guys working on the car, and driving off with it
> *worse*
> than before. I've had this happen occasionally over the years.
>
> And a-n-o-t-h-e-r thing.....
>
> I was recently talking casually to a guy who runs a body shop. We
> were near my Accord and he immediately mentioned that the gap
> between the hood and fender on the left was not the same as the
> corresponding gap on the right side of the hood. And sure enough,
> it wasn't, and very noticeable even though I never noticed. He said
> that was very unusual for Honda and even asked me if the car had
> been wrecked. Pic link below. There is sunlight reflection a
> little
> on the left gap, but you should still be able to see it. The gap on
> left is noticeably bigger than the one on the right. The hood
> opens and closes nicely and everything seems tight and right,
> but it does look kind of bad. What do you guys think? Should
> I complain to Honda about it? Thanks a lot.
>
> http://s603.photobucket.com/albums/t...t=GEDC0178.jpg

It sounds like your rotors are warped.

How could it be a wrecked Honda? You got it new. If you're worried about
this, the body-fender guy should be able to tell if it's been in a
accident pretty easily. Nice looking car though...

jim beam

On 09/17/2009 07:32 PM, dsi1 wrote:
> Otis wrote:
>> General questions which is why I included five NG's.
>>
>> I've actually had the car for almost a year (bought 9-25-08).
>>
>> The car had a mild steering wheel shimmy at 60-70 mph that
>> I noticed driving it home from the dealership the day I bought it.
>> The car had not been sitting on the lot long ( a week or so, being
>> recently delivered), so I doubt there were flat spots on the tires.
>> I decided to let it go and forget about it. Still, you don't expect
>> this with a brand new car with six miles on it and equipped with
>> Michelins. The shimmy pretty much stayed, but as I said,
>> it is mild. I rotated the tires at about 6500 miles a couple of
>> months ago, which is when the little Honda Maintenance Minder
>> told me to (cross to front as the manual said).
>>
>> Since then, I've noticed that, along with the usual shimmy, it gets
>> a good deal worse when I press the brake at highway speeds.
>> I doubt very seriously that the rotors are warped, but that the wheels
>> were somehow not completely balanced at the factory. And maybe
>> crossing the tires at rotation made the effect worse. That's my
>> guess.
>> I took the car out to the dlership today, explained, and the guy
>> wanted
>> to check the brakes (he said three hours for some reason) and possibly
>> *turn* the rotors. Why? I've never had rotors turned in my life;
>> if they
>> got too grooved I'd just replace them. Considering the time, and his
>> talking about turning rotors, I decided to hold off for now. Do you
>> think
>> I should take the car in and have them at least check the balance
>> on the wheels (free till the 1 year anniversary of purchase)? I could
>> just see those guys working on the car, and driving off with it
>> *worse*
>> than before. I've had this happen occasionally over the years.
>>
>> And a-n-o-t-h-e-r thing.....
>>
>> I was recently talking casually to a guy who runs a body shop. We
>> were near my Accord and he immediately mentioned that the gap
>> between the hood and fender on the left was not the same as the
>> corresponding gap on the right side of the hood. And sure enough,
>> it wasn't, and very noticeable even though I never noticed. He said
>> that was very unusual for Honda and even asked me if the car had
>> been wrecked. Pic link below. There is sunlight reflection a
>> little
>> on the left gap, but you should still be able to see it. The gap on
>> left is noticeably bigger than the one on the right. The hood
>> opens and closes nicely and everything seems tight and right,
>> but it does look kind of bad. What do you guys think? Should
>> I complain to Honda about it? Thanks a lot.
>>
>> http://s603.photobucket.com/albums/t...t=GEDC0178.jpg
>>
>
> It sounds like your rotors are warped.

it's extremely rare for honda rotors to actually warp. it is however
extremely common for surface rust and incorrect torque procedure to
create symptoms /like/ warping.

solution: clean the disk and wheel interface of rust. apply a little
antiseize. re-bolt the wheel with a two or more stage torque process,
using a torque wrench.


>
> How could it be a wrecked Honda? You got it new. If you're worried about
> this, the body-fender guy should be able to tell if it's been in a
> accident pretty easily. Nice looking car though...

jim beam

On 09/17/2009 07:20 PM, Otis wrote:
> General questions which is why I included five NG's.
>
> I've actually had the car for almost a year (bought 9-25-08).
>
> The car had a mild steering wheel shimmy at 60-70 mph that
> I noticed driving it home from the dealership the day I bought it.
> The car had not been sitting on the lot long ( a week or so, being
> recently delivered), so I doubt there were flat spots on the tires.
> I decided to let it go and forget about it. Still, you don't expect
> this with a brand new car with six miles on it and equipped with
> Michelins. The shimmy pretty much stayed, but as I said,
> it is mild. I rotated the tires at about 6500 miles a couple of
> months ago, which is when the little Honda Maintenance Minder
> told me to (cross to front as the manual said).
>
> Since then, I've noticed that, along with the usual shimmy, it gets
> a good deal worse when I press the brake at highway speeds.
> I doubt very seriously that the rotors are warped, but that the wheels
> were somehow not completely balanced at the factory. And maybe
> crossing the tires at rotation made the effect worse. That's my
> guess.
> I took the car out to the dlership today, explained, and the guy
> wanted
> to check the brakes (he said three hours for some reason) and possibly
> *turn* the rotors. Why? I've never had rotors turned in my life;
> if they
> got too grooved I'd just replace them. Considering the time, and his
> talking about turning rotors, I decided to hold off for now. Do you
> think
> I should take the car in and have them at least check the balance
> on the wheels (free till the 1 year anniversary of purchase)? I could
> just see those guys working on the car, and driving off with it
> *worse*
> than before. I've had this happen occasionally over the years.

very common mistake. and one that allows the unscrupulous to soak you
for new brakes more often than not.

never allow any wheel monkey to re-bolt your wheels with air tools -
should always be done by hand using a torque wrench.


>
> And a-n-o-t-h-e-r thing.....
>
> I was recently talking casually to a guy who runs a body shop. We
> were near my Accord and he immediately mentioned that the gap
> between the hood and fender on the left was not the same as the
> corresponding gap on the right side of the hood. And sure enough,
> it wasn't, and very noticeable even though I never noticed. He said
> that was very unusual for Honda and even asked me if the car had
> been wrecked. Pic link below. There is sunlight reflection a
> little
> on the left gap, but you should still be able to see it. The gap on
> left is noticeably bigger than the one on the right. The hood
> opens and closes nicely and everything seems tight and right,
> but it does look kind of bad. What do you guys think? Should
> I complain to Honda about it? Thanks a lot.
>
> http://s603.photobucket.com/albums/t...t=GEDC0178.jpg

dsi1

jim beam wrote:
> it's extremely rare for honda rotors to actually warp. it is however
> extremely common for surface rust and incorrect torque procedure to
> create symptoms /like/ warping.
>
> solution: clean the disk and wheel interface of rust. apply a little
> antiseize. re-bolt the wheel with a two or more stage torque process,
> using a torque wrench.
>

I've never owned a Honda so I defer to your expertise - all the cars
I've owned had the standard warping rotors. OTOH, I've never had a car
that was sensitive to rust on the wheel hubs. Does this happen mostly
with steel wheels or alloy wheels?

Those grease monkeys sure do like to over-torque those wheel nuts!

Fatter Than Ever Moe

Otis wrote:
> General questions which is why I included five NG's.
>
> I've actually had the car for almost a year (bought 9-25-08).
>
> The car had a mild steering wheel shimmy at 60-70 mph that
> I noticed driving it home from the dealership the day I bought it.
> The car had not been sitting on the lot long ( a week or so, being
> recently delivered), so I doubt there were flat spots on the tires.
> I decided to let it go and forget about it. Still, you don't expect
> this with a brand new car with six miles on it and equipped with
> Michelins. The shimmy pretty much stayed, but as I said,
> it is mild. I rotated the tires at about 6500 miles a couple of
> months ago, which is when the little Honda Maintenance Minder
> told me to (cross to front as the manual said).
>
> Since then, I've noticed that, along with the usual shimmy, it gets
> a good deal worse when I press the brake at highway speeds.
> I doubt very seriously that the rotors are warped, but that the wheels
> were somehow not completely balanced at the factory. And maybe
> crossing the tires at rotation made the effect worse. That's my
> guess.
> I took the car out to the dlership today, explained, and the guy
> wanted
> to check the brakes (he said three hours for some reason) and possibly
> *turn* the rotors. Why? I've never had rotors turned in my life;
> if they
> got too grooved I'd just replace them. Considering the time, and his
> talking about turning rotors, I decided to hold off for now. Do you
> think
> I should take the car in and have them at least check the balance
> on the wheels (free till the 1 year anniversary of purchase)? I could
> just see those guys working on the car, and driving off with it
> *worse*
> than before. I've had this happen occasionally over the years.
>
> And a-n-o-t-h-e-r thing.....
>
> I was recently talking casually to a guy who runs a body shop. We
> were near my Accord and he immediately mentioned that the gap
> between the hood and fender on the left was not the same as the
> corresponding gap on the right side of the hood. And sure enough,
> it wasn't, and very noticeable even though I never noticed. He said
> that was very unusual for Honda and even asked me if the car had
> been wrecked. Pic link below. There is sunlight reflection a
> little
> on the left gap, but you should still be able to see it. The gap on
> left is noticeably bigger than the one on the right. The hood
> opens and closes nicely and everything seems tight and right,
> but it does look kind of bad. What do you guys think? Should
> I complain to Honda about it? Thanks a lot.
>
> http://s603.photobucket.com/albums/t...t=GEDC0178.jpg

A classic wheel/tire/brake problem. First, the rim has to be within
tolerances when bolted to the car it has to run true. This can be
checked on the car with a dial indicator. Then the tire has to within
tolerances and this is the hard one to check. Balancing the tire is
easy but if the tire has bad belts or some kind of defect it can do
really strange things and shimmy is one of them. The brakes should be
the easiest. With the rotor on the car it's checked for run out and
Honda once had a bulletin about truing the rotor while on the car.
I sounds like you have something out of round or out of balance and a
brake problem.
Hunter is probably the best for finding and fixing these things.
Once you get your brake shimmy problem solved taking it easy on stops
will keep the problem from reoccurring.
Here some reading for you,
http://www.hunter.com/PUB/undercar/index.htm
Tire Rack has a lot of good information
http://tires.tirerack.com/search?p=Q...=and&view=list
What I'd do if I were you would be to find a good suspension shop and
have it all checked out. What I'd do if it were me would be to get the
old dial indicator out and start checking things out. And a long hard
stop generates a lot of heat, a whole lot of heat on the rotors and is
the best way I know to warp them.

jim beam

On 09/18/2009 01:38 AM, dsi1 wrote:
> jim beam wrote:
>> it's extremely rare for honda rotors to actually warp. it is however
>> extremely common for surface rust and incorrect torque procedure to
>> create symptoms /like/ warping.
>>
>> solution: clean the disk and wheel interface of rust. apply a little
>> antiseize. re-bolt the wheel with a two or more stage torque process,
>> using a torque wrench.
>>
>
> I've never owned a Honda so I defer to your expertise - all the cars
> I've owned had the standard warping rotors.

it's probably for the reasons i said. try the scrape, anti-seize and
torque wrench solution.


> OTOH, I've never had a car
> that was sensitive to rust on the wheel hubs.

the two are connected. seriously, it's very unusual for the brake disk
iron to actually warp.


> Does this happen mostly
> with steel wheels or alloy wheels?

it's more noticeable with steel..


>
> Those grease monkeys sure do like to over-torque those wheel nuts!

hls

"jim beam" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message
>>
>> It sounds like your rotors are warped.
>
> it's extremely rare for honda rotors to actually warp. it is however
> extremely common for surface rust and incorrect torque procedure to create
> symptoms /like/ warping.

Almost any rotors CAN warp if they are mistreated seriously enough.
I have seen it happen on Toyotas, Dodges, GM products, etc. Heat
and improper torqueing seems to cause these problems, and the warp
can be a real issue.

There are however other possibilities, including the buildup of rust or
dirt which can cause the rotors or wheels to run out of plane. Roundness
or eccentricity and planar trueness of wheels are other factors that
can occur.

Tires are yet a third. Even Michelins can occasionally give a little
shudder.

A really good shop can measure and correct these for the most part. A good
shop does not necessarily mean a damn dealership. A dealership might be
good, and an independent might be the pits, but take the time to find a shop
with good equipment and conscientious mechanics to look into this, as I
know how irritating it can be.

Otis

On Sep 18, 9:35*am, "hls" <h...@nospam.nix> wrote:
> "jim beam" <m...@privacy.net> wrote in message
>
> >> It sounds like your rotors are warped.
>
> > it's extremely rare for honda rotors to actually warp. *it is however
> > extremely common for surface rust and incorrect torque procedure to create
> > symptoms /like/ warping.
>
> Almost any rotors CAN warp if they are mistreated seriously enough.
> I have seen it happen on Toyotas, Dodges, GM products, etc. *Heat
> and improper torqueing seems to cause these problems, and the warp
> can be a real issue.
>
> There are however other possibilities, including the buildup of rust or
> dirt which can cause the rotors or wheels to run out of plane. *Roundness
> or eccentricity and planar trueness of wheels are other factors that
> can occur.
>
> Tires are yet a third. Even Michelins can occasionally give a little
> shudder.
>
> A really good shop can measure and correct these for the most part. *A good
> shop does not necessarily mean a damn dealership. * A dealership might be
> good, and an independent might be the pits, but take the time to find a shop
> with good equipment and conscientious mechanics to look into this, as I
> know how irritating it can be.

Well, the reason I took it back to the dealership is because all of
this work
should be warranty work. I guess I'll take it back over there next
week and
have them do their thing. BTW, I rotated the wheels myself and used a
torque wrench and tightened to specified torque. And I have driven
every
single mile since purchase.

So, as far as the hood/fender gaps; it appears most of you don't feel
it's
much of an issue. I'm kind of on the fence about it.

E. Meyer

On 9/18/09 8:51 AM, in article
b9380ec6-c2d5-4001-82a2-9932b09a84a1...oglegroups.com, "Otis"
<rev_otis_mcnatt@yahoo.com> wrote:

> On Sep 18, 9:35*am, "hls" <h...@nospam.nix> wrote:
>> "jim beam" <m...@privacy.net> wrote in message
>>
>>>> It sounds like your rotors are warped.
>>
>>> it's extremely rare for honda rotors to actually warp. *it is however
>>> extremely common for surface rust and incorrect torque procedure to create
>>> symptoms /like/ warping.
>>
>> Almost any rotors CAN warp if they are mistreated seriously enough.
>> I have seen it happen on Toyotas, Dodges, GM products, etc. *Heat
>> and improper torqueing seems to cause these problems, and the warp
>> can be a real issue.
>>
>> There are however other possibilities, including the buildup of rust or
>> dirt which can cause the rotors or wheels to run out of plane. *Roundness
>> or eccentricity and planar trueness of wheels are other factors that
>> can occur.
>>
>> Tires are yet a third. Even Michelins can occasionally give a little
>> shudder.
>>
>> A really good shop can measure and correct these for the most part. *A good
>> shop does not necessarily mean a damn dealership. * A dealership might be
>> good, and an independent might be the pits, but take the time to find a shop
>> with good equipment and conscientious mechanics to look into this, as I
>> know how irritating it can be.
>
> Well, the reason I took it back to the dealership is because all of
> this work
> should be warranty work. I guess I'll take it back over there next
> week and
> have them do their thing. BTW, I rotated the wheels myself and used a
> torque wrench and tightened to specified torque. And I have driven
> every
> single mile since purchase.
>
> So, as far as the hood/fender gaps; it appears most of you don't feel
> it's
> much of an issue. I'm kind of on the fence about it.

Re your hood issue. The Hondas I have owned that were built in Japan
have/had absolutely perfect fit & finish; every gap aligned, every panel
perfectly flush with those surrounding it, etc. The one Honda I had that
was built in the US on the Accord line (a 2000 Acura TL) did not have
perfect fit & finish. There were minor but obvious misalignments around the
rear bumper and in a few other places. Check your serial number. If it
doesn't start with "J", you probably have your answer.