Differential

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Old 24 Apr 2004, 06:07 am   #1 (permalink)
m Ransley
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Default Differential

Is using synthetic trans fluid in a 91 4 cil automatic camry ok. The
manual calls for trans fluid for the differential.

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Old 24 Apr 2004, 08:49 am   #2 (permalink)
Philip®
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Default Re: Differential

m Ransley wrote:
> Is using synthetic trans fluid in a 91 4 cil automatic camry ok.
> The manual calls for trans fluid for the differential.


Part of what a gear oil does is 'cushion' rounded surfaces from each
other. This is done with viscosity. All else pretty much equal,
synthetic ATF has a lighter viscosity. You have rounded surfaces
coming/leaving contact between the ring/pinion gears, more so the
spider gears, and the tapered carrier bearings. Am not a fan of
using light viscosity oils in this application. Synthetic ATF has an
advantage in sliding surfaces applications like power steering pumps
and bands / clutchs and where the lubricant is subject to greater
oxidation.

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~Philip

"Liberalism is a mental disease!"
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Old 24 Apr 2004, 09:11 am   #3 (permalink)
m Ransley
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Default Re: Differential

Phil, my understanding is the viscosity is the same but the anti
friction additives make it just more slippery- less friction.
Viscosity is thickness or the ability to pour through a certain sized
hole at a specified temp measured for volume and time.

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Old 24 Apr 2004, 01:09 pm   #4 (permalink)
Jason James
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Default Re: Differential


"m Ransley" <ransley@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:7851-408A75A0-23@storefull-3137.bay.webtv.net...
> Phil, my understanding is the viscosity is the same but the anti
> friction additives make it just more slippery- less friction.
> Viscosity is thickness or the ability to pour through a certain sized
> hole at a specified temp measured for volume and time.


There is a difference in the viscosity vs temp curve for synthetic oils. I
tried a 5-50 synth in place of a conventional 20-50 in a old tech V8. In
theory both oils should have had similar viscosities approaching 100c or at
the engine operating temp of approx 80c, but they didn't seem to have the
same 'film-strength'. The synth oil allowed channeling to occur at the
rod-bearings which could be heard.

The same conditions, but at a lower temp exist in an automatic transaxle.
The gear teeth meshing in the final drive, especialy the side-gears as Phil
mentioned, present a similar channeling opportunity.

Jason



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Old 24 Apr 2004, 09:28 pm   #5 (permalink)
Philip®
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Default Re: Differential

m Ransley wrote:
> Phil, my understanding is the viscosity is the same but the anti
> friction additives make it just more slippery- less friction.
> Viscosity is thickness or the ability to pour through a certain
> sized hole at a specified temp measured for volume and time.


The PRIMARY difference distinguishing the various ATFs is the
friction coefficient (friction modifier additives). This is
determined by the transmission manufacturer based on their objectives
to get smooth shifts and compromises to improve final drive gear
life. Therefore any ATF (synthetic or conventional) must meet the
friction coefficients for the designation. The synthetic would have
longer life, improved viscosity stability across the operating
temperature range, and have a viscosity on the thin end of tolerance
compared to a conventional ATF. Viscosity is as you described
*and* has a value quite distinct from slipperyness.
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- Philip @ Maximum Torque RPM


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Old 25 Apr 2004, 08:57 am   #6 (permalink)
Daniel M. Dreifus
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Default Re: Differential

ransley@webtv.net (m Ransley) wrote in message news:<29041-408A4A5E-16@storefull-3131.bay.webtv.net>...
> Is using synthetic trans fluid in a 91 4 cil automatic camry ok. The
> manual calls for trans fluid for the differential.


Yes.
The synthetic ATF will substitute for standard ATF.

Personally, I use Mobil i synthetic ATF in the automatic transmission,
differential and power steering reservoir, plus Lucas Transmission Fix
in the following proportions (from my service notes):

100,230, drained differential and replaced with Mobil 1 synthetic ATF
and Lucas Transmission Fix at 5%, ie., 3 oz. to 1.7 qts.

also upgrade P.S. reservoir to 1.5 oz., 3 tablespoons, equivalent to
12.5% concentration

according to factory manual, total transmission capacity for the A140E
is 5.9 qts., so orig. 24 oz. was 12.7% concentration. to maintain
12.5% would be 10 oz. in 80 oz (2.5qts.)

For the differential, why not use fully synthetic ATF? The old fluid
looked like chocolate milk when drained out - milky brown color rather
than clear bright red. Plus I noticed an improvement in power within
the first fifteen minutes test drive, while accelerating up a slight
grade on to a freeway. Had tried 10% Lucas in the differential, but
felt it bogged down too much, so drained out and replaced with the 5%
solution.
I also use Lucas and Mobil 1 in the transmission. One bottle, and then
replacement quantities at drain intervals to maintain concentration.
Added the Lucas in the transmission to quiet the hydraulics and extend
transmission life. There are no solvents to swell or damage seals.
Added Lucas power steering fix with Mobil 1 to the power steering
(flushed by the Dealer at 85,000 miles) as preventative measures
against steering rack leaks, which are not unknown with this model and
also quite costly to repair. Noticed unexpected improvement in power
steering response when turning quickly at slow speed. Belt was already
in good condition and tensioned correctly so I credit the Lucas.
99,996, Lucas at 20% (.75 qts [3 cups]) plus Mobil 1 10W30 oil change
(engine), added to minimize potential for leakage at rear main bearing
seal after seeing the tiniest hint of seepage beginning. Major job to
replace that bearing seal. Unexpected side benefit, blue smoke on cold
start up from slight seepage at valve guide seals over night - gone -
no more smoke on cold start up for the last 20,000 miles, and I no
longer see the beginnings of a drop of oil where the transmission
joins the engine block.
I use synthetic oil in the engine because the 4 cylinder often
downshifts under acceleration, instantly kicking the RPM range up -
and I like having the extra film strength of synthetic - also useful
when idling with A/C on in hot weather because synthetic is more
stable a higher temperatures, plus synthetic is known for promoting
internal engine cleanliness.
Since I've gone this far, I also use a power bleeder to bleed the
brake fluid. The power bleeder makes it easy enough I've bled them
three times over the last 15,000 miles and the brake fluid is now
staying light amber color.
I also keep the coolant fresh with factory fill plus distilled water.
Everyone seems to be saying use 50% mixture, but I use 60% coolant as
recommended by my factory service manual.
I also use RedLine complete fuel system cleaner, apx. 2 oz. per gas
tank fill up, and run the 14" tires at 31 psi front and 26 psi rear.
(Figure I'm going to catch criticism for Lucas with Mobil 1, may as
well list all my maintenance idiosyncrasies simultaneously - but ...
the 2.2 liter 4 cyl. has ample power, runs smoothly and quietly, and
when I occasionally take corners at speeds which seem way too fast, it
just handles the corners effortlessly.)
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Old 25 Apr 2004, 10:11 am   #7 (permalink)
Philip®
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Default Re: Differential

Daniel M. Dreifus wrote:
>
> Personally, I use Mobil i synthetic ATF in the automatic
> transmission,
> differential and power steering reservoir, plus Lucas Transmission
> Fix
> in the following proportions (from my service notes):


Oh this is going to be fun.

> Snip<
> (My) differential('s) old fluid looked like chocolate milk when
> drained out - milky brown color rather than clear bright red.
> Plus I noticed an improvement in power within
> the first fifteen minutes test drive, while accelerating up a
> slight grade on to a freeway. Had tried 10% Lucas in the
> differential, but felt it bogged down too much, so drained out
> and replaced with the 5% solution.


As you have described your final drive fluid suggests water
contamination. This can happed when driving thru very deep flooding
over roads. There is an air vent on the differential ya know. Also
I doubt very much you can distinguish oil grades in the differential.
A double blind test would likely bear this out. These a low rpm gears
with the ring bear turning at the same rpm as the *tires*.

>Snip<
> Added the Lucas in the transmission to quiet the hydraulics and
> extend transmission life.


Talk about a load of BS. You're a "believer." The ONLY component in
any automatic that might possibly produce a sound that you can hear
is the oil pump. Now, if your pump is making noises that any
additive can silence, you've got *much* bigger problem in the works.

> Added Lucas power steering fix with Mobil 1 to the power steering
> (flushed by the Dealer at 85,000 miles) as preventative measures
> against steering rack leaks, which are not unknown with this model
> and also quite costly to repair. Noticed unexpected improvement in
> power steering response when turning quickly at slow speed.


With 85k on the original PS fluid, the seal damage to the steering
rack is already accelerated. PS has a very small volume of fluid
compared to a transmission and should be replaced as often as the
transmission fluid. Fluid in a power steering rack should also have
more anti-stiction additive that ... in a transmission ... would
promote softer/sliding shifts. Dexron can be used in PS systems but
is not the optimum until such time as ATFs are formulated similarly.
You'll notice Honda has had a special PS fluid spec for many years
(very low stiction). What you've accomplished with Lucas in your PS
fluid is to lower the fluid's friction coefficient. This is a good
thing for this system.

> I use synthetic oil in the engine because the 4 cylinder often
> downshifts under acceleration, instantly kicking the RPM range up -
> and I like having the extra film strength of synthetic - also
> useful when idling with A/C on in hot weather because synthetic is

more
> stable a higher temperatures, plus synthetic is known for promoting
> internal engine cleanliness.


Unless you're maintaining the RPM up above 4,000 rpm a lot and in hot
ambient temperatures, there's little benefit except to your beliefs.

> Since I've gone this far, I also use a power bleeder to bleed the
> brake fluid. The power bleeder makes it easy enough I've bled them
> three times over the last 15,000 miles and the brake fluid is now
> staying light amber color.


WHAT? No Lucas magic goo in the brake fluid?

> I also keep the coolant fresh with factory fill plus distilled

water.
> Everyone seems to be saying use 50% mixture, but I use 60% coolant
> as recommended by my factory service manual.


It's rarely beneficial to mix that strongly (unless the car is
subjected to sitting in 40 below zero weather). Mixing the coolant
strongly *interferes* with water's ability to absorb and release
heat. Remember .... the thermostat regulates the temperature of the
coolant only. If you compromise water's ability to absorb/release
heat, the engine block will run hotter in spite of the coolant
temperature as regulated by the thermostat. If the car were *never*
exposed to freezing, you can run something like Redline's Water
Wetter with only 10% antifreeze and experience no corrosion. At the
high temperature end, water / coolant's boil point is determined
mostly by pressurizing the cooling system.

--

- Philip @ Maximum Torque RPM


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Old 25 Apr 2004, 10:49 am   #8 (permalink)
m Ransley
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Default Re: Differential

In none of my manuals can i find a power steering fluid replacement
length

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Old 25 Apr 2004, 06:51 pm   #9 (permalink)
Philip®
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Default Re: Differential


"m Ransley" <ransley@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:21941-408BDE09-174@storefull-3132.bay.webtv.net...
> In none of my manuals can i find a power steering fluid

replacement
> length


That's because that particular service is not listed. LOL It's
another one of those things you LEARN when you've been in the
business for years. One starts to see the correlaton between rancid
fluid and leaking steering racks and blown hoses. :^)

--

- Philip @ Maximum Torque RPM



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Old 26 Apr 2004, 06:28 am   #10 (permalink)
m Ransley
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Default Re: Differential

So what else isnt listed for maintenance that should be. Wheel bearings
are one thing I can think of.

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