Toyota weighs Corolla engine stalling fix that puts drivers in danger

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Old 17 Mar 2010, 10:40 pm   #1 (permalink)
john
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Default Toyota weighs Corolla engine stalling fix that puts drivers in danger

Last November, NHTSA opened an investigation into the 2006 Toyota
Corolla and Matrix with the 1ZZ-FE engine after receiving 26
complaints alleging engine stall. Some of the stalls took place on
highways or intersections -- a situation that could pose a safety
hazard. NHTSA has since received another 30 complaints on the issue

From The Detroit News:
http://www.detroitnews.com/article/2...#ixzz0iUoegh1A
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Old 17 Mar 2010, 11:17 pm   #2 (permalink)
Hachiroku ハチロク
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Default Re: Toyota weighs Corolla engine stalling fix that puts drivers in danger

On Wed, 17 Mar 2010 20:40:42 -0700, john wrote:

> Last November, NHTSA opened an investigation into the 2006 Toyota Corolla
> and Matrix with the 1ZZ-FE engine after receiving 26 complaints alleging
> engine stall. Some of the stalls took place on highways or intersections
> -- a situation that could pose a safety hazard. NHTSA has since received
> another 30 complaints on the issue
>
> From The Detroit News:
> http://www.detroitnews.com/article/2...#ixzz0iUoegh1A


WOW! FIFTY-SIX STALLING COMPLAINTS!!!

Consdiering Toyota sold 387,388 Corollas that year, that's REALLY
something to worry about!!!!

Thanks for keeping us abreast of the latest blunders from Toyota, pinhead.



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Old 18 Mar 2010, 08:58 am   #3 (permalink)
C. E. White
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Default Re: Toyota weighs Corolla engine stalling fix that puts drivers in danger


"john" <johngdole@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:a1c9d19d-1041-4d0c-b4ba-2b14ecf9df83@z18g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
> Last November, NHTSA opened an investigation into the 2006 Toyota
> Corolla and Matrix with the 1ZZ-FE engine after receiving 26
> complaints alleging engine stall. Some of the stalls took place on
> highways or intersections -- a situation that could pose a safety
> hazard. NHTSA has since received another 30 complaints on the issue


Only 26? So is NHTSA invstigating any trivial complaint against
Toyota? Has NHTSA gone from ignoring the significant to minutely
examining the insignificant?

Compared to UA complinats, or braking issues, 26 alledged cases of
stalling is a non-issue. I'll bet more people stall Corollas becasue
they ran out of gas than becasue of this problem.

Here is what the NHTSA investigation summary says:

NHTSA Action Number : PE09054 NHTSA Recall Campaign Number : N/A
Make / Models : Model/Build Years:
TOYOTA / COROLLA 2006

TOYOTA / COROLLA MATRIX 2006

Manufacturer : TOYOTA MOTOR CORPORATION
Component :
ENGINE AND ENGINE COOLING

Date Investigation Opened : November 30, 2009
Date Investigation Closed : Open
Summary:
ODI HAS RECEIVED 26 COMPLAINTS ALLEGING INCIDENTS OF
ENGINE STALL WHILE DRIVING DUE TO ECM FAILURE IN MODEL YEAR (MY) 2006
TOYOTA COROLLA AND MATRIX VEHICLES EQUIPPED WITH THE 1ZZ-FE ENGINE.
THE COMPLAINTS ALLEGE STALLS OCCURRING RANDOMLY WHILE DRIVING,
INCLUDING SOME ON HIGHWAYS AND SOME IN INTERSECTIONS. MANY ALLEGE
DIFFICULTIES RESTARTING THE ENGINE OR PROBLEMS WITH RECURRING STALLS
FOLLOWING RESTART. ON SEPTEMBER 20, 2007, TOYOTA ISSUED TECHNICAL
SERVICE BULLETIN TC015-07, "HARSH SHIFT AND M.I.L. 'ON' DTC P2716,"
PROVIDING INSTRUCTIONS FOR DIAGNOSING AND REPAIRING COMPLAINTS OF
HARSH SHIFT WITH MALFUNCTION INDICATOR LAMP ILLUMINATION AND
DIAGNOSTIC TROUBLE CODE P2716 STORED. THE BULLETIN CALLS FOR
REPLACEMENT OF THE ECM WITH AN IMPROVED VERSION (PART NOS.
89661-02K11, 02K21, 02K31 & 02K41). TOYOTA'S BULLETIN IS CITED IN
SEVERAL REPORTS. SOME OWNERS ALSO ALLEGE THAT THEY HAD TO WAIT FOR A
REPLACEMENT ECM BECAUSE THE PART WAS ON NATIONAL BACKORDER. ODI HAS
RECEIVED 5 COMPLAINTS OF STALL WHILE DRIVING IN MY 2005 COROLLA AND
MATRIX VEHICLES AND 7 COMPLAINTS FOR THE MY 2007 VEHICLES. A
PRELIMINARY EVALUATION HAS BEEN OPENED TO ASSESS THE FREQUENCY, SCOPE
AND SAFETY CONSEQUENCES OF THE ALLEGED DEFECT IN THE SUBJECT VEHICLES.


Toyota is clearly aware of this problem and has actually
released a fix. A letter with Toyota's response is at
http://nhthqnwws111.odi.nhtsa.dot.go...054-39620P.pdf

Here are few key elements fromt he Toyota response:

There were 1,186,448 vehicle targted in the NHTSA request for
information. 26 vehicle in 1,186,448 is 0.0022%.

The ECM that is alleged to be the casue of the stalling is
covered by a 96 months or 80,000 mile warranty.

There was a history of no-start (and stalling) related to these
engines. Toyota issued several TSBs related to this problem. The
current TSB that relates to the problem is TC015-07.

....Toyota has identified two potential issues with the Engine
ECU that could relate to the alleged defect:
A-I: Crack in Solder
A-2: Short in Varistor

The response includes a long description of the potential
problems. Toyota projected a 10 year cumulative failure rate of less
than 1% for these two problems (and a significant number of these
would occur while the vehicle was still under warranty).

The following statement is from the response letter:

"Toyota has been investigating this issue and is now considering
how to address our customer concerns. Based upon its analysis, Toyota
does not believe that the alleged defect creates an unreasonable risk
to motor vehicle safety. We understand that some customers have been
inconvenienced by engine ECU failure, and some have reported engine
staJling. It is our philosophy that when certain types of Engine ECU
failures occur, engine stall or shutdown is preferable as opposed to
allowing the engine to become damaged or dangerous (i.e. catastrophic
failure, fire, etc.)."

This seem like an insignificant problem to me. I can't see how a
recall would be justifiable unless the failure rate turns out to be a
lot greater. At least so far this is a drop in the bucket. The only
similar "stalling" problem I can recall was the Ford TFI Module
failure problem (modules would sometimes fail if over heated). I think
the failure rate for those was over 10% (hundreds/thousands of times
greater than this). As far i can remember, NHTSA never forced Ford to
recall the cars to replace the TFI, but Ford did extend the warranty
to 100,000 miles. Since the Toyota warranty on the ECM is already
80,000 miles, probably the only outcome of the investigation would be
an extension of the warranty. I know this has been the result of
several other "performance related" investigations.

I think people have forgotten how really good cars are now. Back
in the good old days, stalling of cars was not uncommon. Heck, the
Cressida we owned would go belly up every August. I could count on the
ex calling me and telling me the car had died and all the dash lights
were on at least once each August as long as we owned the car.

Ed




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Old 18 Mar 2010, 11:39 am   #4 (permalink)
Hachiroku ハチロク
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Default Re: Toyota weighs Corolla engine stalling fix that puts drivers in danger

On Thu, 18 Mar 2010 09:58:42 -0400, C. E. White wrote:

>
> There were 1,186,448 vehicle targted in the NHTSA request for
> information. 26 vehicle in 1,186,448 is 0.0022%.


But that's enough for someone like 'john' to start ringing the alarm.

I think he's a Class Action lawyer trying to drum up business.

Notice how he hits and runs?



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Old 18 Mar 2010, 11:52 am   #5 (permalink)
Scott in Florida
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Default Re: Toyota weighs Corolla engine stalling fix that puts drivers in danger

On Thu, 18 Mar 2010 12:39:07 -0400, Hachiroku ???? <Trueno@e86.GTS> wrote:

>On Thu, 18 Mar 2010 09:58:42 -0400, C. E. White wrote:
>
>>
>> There were 1,186,448 vehicle targted in the NHTSA request for
>> information. 26 vehicle in 1,186,448 is 0.0022%.

>
>But that's enough for someone like 'john' to start ringing the alarm.
>
>I think he's a Class Action lawyer trying to drum up business.
>
>Notice how he hits and runs?
>
>


Remember 'sludge' caused by drivers not changing their oil?????


--

Scott in Florida




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Old 18 Mar 2010, 11:54 am   #6 (permalink)
Hachiroku ハチロク
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Default Re: Toyota weighs Corolla engine stalling fix that puts drivers in danger

On Thu, 18 Mar 2010 12:52:34 -0400, Scott in Florida wrote:

> On Thu, 18 Mar 2010 12:39:07 -0400, Hachiroku ???? <Trueno@e86.GTS> wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 18 Mar 2010 09:58:42 -0400, C. E. White wrote:
>>
>>
>>> There were 1,186,448 vehicle targted in the NHTSA request for
>>> information. 26 vehicle in 1,186,448 is 0.0022%.

>>
>>But that's enough for someone like 'john' to start ringing the alarm.
>>
>>I think he's a Class Action lawyer trying to drum up business.
>>
>>Notice how he hits and runs?
>>
>>
>>

> Remember 'sludge' caused by drivers not changing their oil?????


It did have something to do with narrower than usual oil passages, but if
you kept up regular oil changes with quality oil you probably wouldn't see
it.

BTW, I saw a mint condition '91 or '92 Corolla wagon the other day,
unusual for this area. Usually they're starting to rust by now. This one
was perfect.



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Old 18 Mar 2010, 11:59 am   #7 (permalink)
Scott in Florida
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Default Re: Toyota weighs Corolla engine stalling fix that puts drivers in danger

On Thu, 18 Mar 2010 12:54:52 -0400, Hachiroku ???? <Trueno@e86.GTS> wrote:

>On Thu, 18 Mar 2010 12:52:34 -0400, Scott in Florida wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 18 Mar 2010 12:39:07 -0400, Hachiroku ???? <Trueno@e86.GTS> wrote:
>>
>>>On Thu, 18 Mar 2010 09:58:42 -0400, C. E. White wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> There were 1,186,448 vehicle targted in the NHTSA request for
>>>> information. 26 vehicle in 1,186,448 is 0.0022%.
>>>
>>>But that's enough for someone like 'john' to start ringing the alarm.
>>>
>>>I think he's a Class Action lawyer trying to drum up business.
>>>
>>>Notice how he hits and runs?
>>>
>>>
>>>

>> Remember 'sludge' caused by drivers not changing their oil?????

>
>It did have something to do with narrower than usual oil passages, but if
>you kept up regular oil changes with quality oil you probably wouldn't see
>it.
>
>BTW, I saw a mint condition '91 or '92 Corolla wagon the other day,
>unusual for this area. Usually they're starting to rust by now. This one
>was perfect.
>
>


I marvel at how well the car ('92 Corolla Wagon) is made.

It has an actual plywood door over the spare. On that door are a number of
attachments that were hand installed. I know you can't do that now because
of cost, but it sure is nice to own one.


--

Scott in Florida




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Old 18 Mar 2010, 12:44 pm   #8 (permalink)
C. E. White
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Default Re: Toyota weighs Corolla engine stalling fix that puts drivers in danger


"Scott in Florida" <MoveOn@Outa.here> wrote in message
newshm4q51sddte5si7rv68uvh4biimt3n7ch@4ax.com...

> Remember 'sludge' caused by drivers not changing their oil?????


Not that again. Claiming it was the Customers fault drives me crazy.
Toyota was at fault in that case. Trying to shift blame to Customers
by saying if only they had changed the oil more often there would not
have been a problem is classic Toyota misdirection. You know, "it is
not our cars, it is the idiots who buy them" defense.


The facts are clear. For a number of years Toyota built engines that
were far more likely to be damaged by sludge than engines from most
other manufacturers or even from Toyota engines from other periods. It
is impossible to say that this was always the fault of the Customers
unless you think for those particular year the Customers who bought
the sludge prone Toyota engines were some how different from average
automobile Customers, or even Toyota Customers from other years.



Yes, if the unfortunate Customers with sludge damaged engines had
changed their oil more often than required by the Toyota maintenance
schedule, or if they had made sure they used better quality oil,
or....yada, yada, yada, they probably would not have experienced the
sludge problem. However, people who treated their Toyota just like
they treated other cars, even other Toyotas, experienced sludge
problems. Either the engineers at Toyota were clueless about their
Customer base or they were too arrogant to care. Either way for
several years Toyota sold engines that were not suitable for a large
number of Toyota Customers. Trying to shift the blame to Customers
might make save some face at Toyota Inc., but it sucks if you were one
of the victims of the bad design. And it is clear that it was a bad
design since the sludge problems completely disappeared after the
engine design was changed. Given all the claims of super Toyota
quality and super Toyota Customer Service, etc., it is just plain
hypocrisy to say it is the Customers fault for not changing the oil
often enough. I suppose Toyota should have sent at a label. It could
have said - "yes we know your owners manual say you can go 75000 mile
between oil changes, but it really should say you can only go 3000
miles between oil changes - we lied about that other number."



Ed



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Old 18 Mar 2010, 01:20 pm   #9 (permalink)
Hachiroku ハチロク
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Default Re: Toyota weighs Corolla engine stalling fix that puts drivers in danger

On Thu, 18 Mar 2010 12:59:45 -0400, Scott in Florida wrote:

> On Thu, 18 Mar 2010 12:54:52 -0400, Hachiroku ???? <Trueno@e86.GTS> wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 18 Mar 2010 12:52:34 -0400, Scott in Florida wrote:
>>
>>> On Thu, 18 Mar 2010 12:39:07 -0400, Hachiroku ???? <Trueno@e86.GTS>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Thu, 18 Mar 2010 09:58:42 -0400, C. E. White wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> There were 1,186,448 vehicle targted in the NHTSA request for
>>>>> information. 26 vehicle in 1,186,448 is 0.0022%.
>>>>
>>>>But that's enough for someone like 'john' to start ringing the alarm.
>>>>
>>>>I think he's a Class Action lawyer trying to drum up business.
>>>>
>>>>Notice how he hits and runs?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Remember 'sludge' caused by drivers not changing their oil?????

>>
>>It did have something to do with narrower than usual oil passages, but if
>>you kept up regular oil changes with quality oil you probably wouldn't
>>see it.
>>
>>BTW, I saw a mint condition '91 or '92 Corolla wagon the other day,
>>unusual for this area. Usually they're starting to rust by now. This one
>>was perfect.
>>
>>
>>

> I marvel at how well the car ('92 Corolla Wagon) is made.
>
> It has an actual plywood door over the spare. On that door are a number
> of attachments that were hand installed. I know you can't do that now
> because of cost, but it sure is nice to own one.


Same thing on the Supra.

Now, if I could only remember what the hell I did with the jack handle...



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Old 19 Mar 2010, 10:06 am   #10 (permalink)
Wayne
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Default Re: Toyota weighs Corolla engine stalling fix that puts drivers in danger


"john" <johngdole@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:a1c9d19d-1041-4d0c-b4ba-2b14ecf9df83@z18g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
> Last November, NHTSA opened an investigation into the 2006 Toyota
> Corolla and Matrix with the 1ZZ-FE engine after receiving 26
> complaints alleging engine stall. Some of the stalls took place on
> highways or intersections -- a situation that could pose a safety
> hazard. NHTSA has since received another 30 complaints on the issue
>
> From The Detroit News:
> http://www.detroitnews.com/article/2...#ixzz0iUoegh1A

-
BFD. I used to drive a Ford. Stalling was a way of life, particularly in
the winter. There were 26 complaints? Hell, my Ford would stall 26 times in
a week.


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