Camry with 207,000 miles - transmission service

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Old 10 Jul 2006, 10:59 am   #1 (permalink)
Pszemol
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Default Camry with 207,000 miles - transmission service

Hi, I have 1995 camry with 207k miles on the odometer.
Last complete fluid replacement (flush) was done at
the toyota dealership in August 2003 at 148k miles...

Since then I have not done the transmission service.
So it has been almost 3 years and about 60k miles now...
Would you recommend doing the transmission flush or not?

If I were doing this myself - I know I have the drain
plug in the pan, another one in the differential box -
how much fluid am I able to replace just draining both
plugs and refiling it? The Haynes manual calls for
total of 4.3 quarts of Dextron II for bot tranny+differ.
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Old 10 Jul 2006, 06:17 pm   #2 (permalink)
mrdarrett@gmail.com
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Default Re: Camry with 207,000 miles - transmission service


Pszemol wrote:
> Hi, I have 1995 camry with 207k miles on the odometer.
> Last complete fluid replacement (flush) was done at
> the toyota dealership in August 2003 at 148k miles...
>
> Since then I have not done the transmission service.
> So it has been almost 3 years and about 60k miles now...
> Would you recommend doing the transmission flush or not?
>
> If I were doing this myself - I know I have the drain
> plug in the pan, another one in the differential box -
> how much fluid am I able to replace just draining both
> plugs and refiling it? The Haynes manual calls for
> total of 4.3 quarts of Dextron II for bot tranny+differ.



Careful now, does the tranny share fluid with the diff, or are they
separate?

If you drain the diff, you might not be able to get the diff fill nut
off to refill... it's a real pain to get off.

If it were me, I'd just drain and refill, and do another drain and
refill the next time I change the oil. Repeat as often as you like.
Cheaper, too, than a flush... and I think it's Dexron III nowadays,
can't seem to be able to find Dexron II anymore...

Cheers,

Michael

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Old 10 Jul 2006, 08:58 pm   #3 (permalink)
johngdole@hotmail.com
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Default Re: Camry with 207,000 miles - transmission service

Agree there. Always open the fill plug first for this reason. If you
can't open the drain plug, then you can always use a pump to get the
fluid out through the fill hole. At least this way you can always fill
it back up.

There is no reason you should ever get a flush. Just drain and refill
the fluid every 15,000 miles. Replace the strainer and gasket every
30,000 miles. If you need to change out all the fluid, instead of
flushing, try drain and refil every week for three weeks should do the
trick.

But the important thing is to change the strainer - not just clean it.
Wipe up all the metal shavings in the pan, clean the magnets and put
them back in the original positions.

Check to see if there is a coating of black powder on everything. If
you change out the strainer, there should be much less of it next time.
Fram has a nice ATF kit with a cork-rubber gasket, it's a nice kit
although I am not a fan of their oil filters.


mrdarrett@gmail.com wrote:
> Careful now, does the tranny share fluid with the diff, or are they
> separate?
>
> If you drain the diff, you might not be able to get the diff fill nut
> off to refill... it's a real pain to get off.
>
> If it were me, I'd just drain and refill, and do another drain and
> refill the next time I change the oil. Repeat as often as you like.
> Cheaper, too, than a flush... and I think it's Dexron III nowadays,
> can't seem to be able to find Dexron II anymore...
>
> Cheers,
>
> Michael


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Old 10 Jul 2006, 10:05 pm   #4 (permalink)
Pszemol
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Default Re: Camry with 207,000 miles - transmission service

<johngdole@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:1152583124.850618.56750@p79g2000cwp.googlegro ups.com...
> Agree there. Always open the fill plug first for this reason. If you
> can't open the drain plug, then you can always use a pump to get the
> fluid out through the fill hole. At least this way you can always fill
> it back up.


Good idea. Thanks!
As the fillplug for the differ is in the back I can imagine how hard
it is to get to it...

Are these plugs screwed on some thread-lock or any glue/silicone ?
Why would they be hard to get out with a breaker bar ?

After taking them, do I put them back dry, or should I put some antiseize ?

> There is no reason you should ever get a flush. Just drain and refill
> the fluid every 15,000 miles. Replace the strainer and gasket every
> 30,000 miles. If you need to change out all the fluid, instead of
> flushing, try drain and refil every week for three weeks should do the
> trick.


Well, if you can drain only 1/3 of the old oil volume, than after 3 changes
you will have still about 1/3 of the old oil in there... Notice, with every
change the old oil which is left in there mixes with the new one... :-(

> But the important thing is to change the strainer - not just clean it.
> Wipe up all the metal shavings in the pan, clean the magnets and put
> them back in the original positions.


I have heard the toyota does not recomend replacing the strainer...
Why do you think it is importand if even a manufaturer does not think so?
They tend to be rather on the "safe" side as it comes to replacing parts...
All to get more money from the owner in the Service Department ;-)

> Check to see if there is a coating of black powder on everything. If
> you change out the strainer, there should be much less of it next time.
> Fram has a nice ATF kit with a cork-rubber gasket, it's a nice kit
> although I am not a fan of their oil filters.


Sounds like an awful lot of messy work to do ;-)
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Old 10 Jul 2006, 10:08 pm   #5 (permalink)
Pszemol
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Default Re: Camry with 207,000 miles - transmission service

<mrdarrett@gmail.com> wrote in message news:1152573442.733666.224660@35g2000cwc.googlegro ups.com...
> Careful now, does the tranny share fluid with the diff, or are they
> separate?


Hayness book says it is separated in 2.2L engine.

> If you drain the diff, you might not be able to get the diff fill nut
> off to refill... it's a real pain to get off.


I have to get some length of metal pipe to get the leverage
on my L-shaped 10mm Allen wrench :-)
Or get the one goes into a 1/2" socket and use a breaker bar.
Why would the plugs be so hard to unscrew ???
Do they torque them to 90 lbs or what ?

> If it were me, I'd just drain and refill, and do another drain and
> refill the next time I change the oil. Repeat as often as you like.
> Cheaper, too, than a flush... and I think it's Dexron III nowadays,
> can't seem to be able to find Dexron II anymore...


Yes, I have noticed a quart of Dextron costs like less than $3.
I wonder how much am I able to drain through the plug at one pass...
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Old 10 Jul 2006, 11:20 pm   #6 (permalink)
mrdarrett@gmail.com
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Default Re: Camry with 207,000 miles - transmission service


Pszemol wrote:
> <mrdarrett@gmail.com> wrote in message news:1152573442.733666.224660@35g2000cwc.googlegro ups.com...
> > Careful now, does the tranny share fluid with the diff, or are they
> > separate?

>
> Hayness book says it is separated in 2.2L engine.
>
> > If you drain the diff, you might not be able to get the diff fill nut
> > off to refill... it's a real pain to get off.

>
> I have to get some length of metal pipe to get the leverage
> on my L-shaped 10mm Allen wrench :-)
> Or get the one goes into a 1/2" socket and use a breaker bar.
> Why would the plugs be so hard to unscrew ???
> Do they torque them to 90 lbs or what ?
>
> > If it were me, I'd just drain and refill, and do another drain and
> > refill the next time I change the oil. Repeat as often as you like.
> > Cheaper, too, than a flush... and I think it's Dexron III nowadays,
> > can't seem to be able to find Dexron II anymore...

>
> Yes, I have noticed a quart of Dextron costs like less than $3.
> I wonder how much am I able to drain through the plug at one pass...



I was able to drain about 2 qts, a little more if I was patient and let
it sit. Helped a lot if the engine was warm - I commute 2 miles
to/from work, did it along with my oil change right after work. Wear
rubber gloves - the oil can be hot!

Choice is yours... waste a little tranny oil at $3/qt, or go for a
flush at $100+. Sure, it's not 100% efficient, drain and refill, some
old oil remains... but still. Do it more often if you like - I do it
every other oil change. And a good thing, my garbage service picks up
used oil.

Michael

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Old 10 Jul 2006, 11:37 pm   #7 (permalink)
mrdarrett@gmail.com
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Default Re: Camry with 207,000 miles - transmission service


Pszemol wrote:
> <mrdarrett@gmail.com> wrote in message news:1152573442.733666.224660@35g2000cwc.googlegro ups.com...
> > Careful now, does the tranny share fluid with the diff, or are they
> > separate?

>
> Hayness book says it is separated in 2.2L engine.


Good thing you checked! ;-)

>
> > If you drain the diff, you might not be able to get the diff fill nut
> > off to refill... it's a real pain to get off.

>
> I have to get some length of metal pipe to get the leverage
> on my L-shaped 10mm Allen wrench :-)
> Or get the one goes into a 1/2" socket and use a breaker bar.
> Why would the plugs be so hard to unscrew ???
> Do they torque them to 90 lbs or what ?


The diff fill nut is *much* worse. I finally gave up and had Pep Boys
drain and fill my diff - about $30, I brought my own ATF. I supervised
them tho to make sure they got the right plug - they almost drained my
tranny. !!!


> > If it were me, I'd just drain and refill, and do another drain and
> > refill the next time I change the oil. Repeat as often as you like.
> > Cheaper, too, than a flush... and I think it's Dexron III nowadays,
> > can't seem to be able to find Dexron II anymore...

>
> Yes, I have noticed a quart of Dextron costs like less than $3.
> I wonder how much am I able to drain through the plug at one pass...


About the tranny gasket and strainer - if I could do it again I'd use
the kit from Napa Auto Parts. I got a kit from Pep Boys. Strainer was
made in Vietnam. My old strainer looked in good shape, clean... but I
was feeling adventurous. ;-) And yes it was messy work.

Good luck,

Michael

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Old 10 Jul 2006, 11:42 pm   #8 (permalink)
johngdole@hotmail.com
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Default Re: Camry with 207,000 miles - transmission service

Pszemol wrote:
> Good idea. Thanks!
> As the fillplug for the differ is in the back I can imagine how hard
> it is to get to it...


You can actually reach the filler plug from the driver side, and
unscrew the bolt. I find it hard to imagine that you need anything
other than a standard 3/8" 8" ratchet. Or maybe you should use a
standard 3/8" 13" breaker bar. 1/2" will help, but hard to think you
need them. UNLESS the bolts seized to the aluminum casing (!). Did you
try with the engine warm? I always change after warm up, just be
careful of the hot components.

> Are these plugs screwed on some thread-lock or any glue/silicone ?
> Why would they be hard to get out with a breaker bar ?


They are tightened to around 25-35 lbs I think. No thread locker or
antiseize specified.

> After taking them, do I put them back dry, or should I put some antiseize ?


I always do dry as I change fluid often enough. But if there is a lot
of road salt and stuff, consider using a dab of antiseize.

> Well, if you can drain only 1/3 of the old oil volume, than after 3 changes
> you will have still about 1/3 of the old oil in there... Notice, with every
> change the old oil which is left in there mixes with the new one... :-(


True. But this has been used as a standard fluid "replacement"
procedure, short of a machine flush, for instance, to rid a temporary
use of Dexron-III in a synthetic ATF environment. In general it's
sufficient and a lot cheaper than a flush, unless you have serious
transmission problem requiring you to get a flush (like ATF black as
old engine oil). ATF should never be allowed to be darker than
orange-ish or slightly brown.

> I have heard the toyota does not recomend replacing the strainer...
> Why do you think it is importand if even a manufaturer does not think so?
> They tend to be rather on the "safe" side as it comes to replacing parts...
> All to get more money from the owner in the Service Department ;-)


Strainer is considered a "clean only" item. That's what I used to do.
But after getting a Fram strainer kit with cork rubber gasket for a
couple of dollars more than the dealer gasket, and after noticing the
lack of black powder coating over the internal components, I realized
cleaning the strainer just isn't enough (you can't effectively clean a
strainer in its casing even with compressed air). Fram's got a cool
kit. None of that recycled rubber tire gasket in other kits.

Manufacturers also specify longer intervals for marketing purposes. One
is not going advertise a 60K-mile spark plug interval when all others
go for 100K-mile no tune-ups. Besides, most people sell their cars
before 60,000 miles. That's why you get one of these invitations to
trade in your car after only 4 years (this tells you about the intended
design life of the car). But it depends on what you want to do with the
car in the longer term -- keep or trade, etc. For some Camrys there
actually were no specified timing belt replacement intervals. But
wouldn't you at 60K? I'd use a Gates timing kit. Great stuff.
www.gates.com


> > Check to see if there is a coating of black powder on everything.

>
> Sounds like an awful lot of messy work to do ;-)


About 15 more 10mm bolts than a standard oil change The same large
drain pan for oil change and plenty of old newspapers just in case. If
you are mechanically inclined to do these things I would recommend that
you try it at least once, so you see it first hand and make your own
calls after that.

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Old 11 Jul 2006, 08:48 am   #9 (permalink)
Daniel
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Default Re: Camry with 207,000 miles - transmission service

mrdarrett@gmail.com wrote:
> Pszemol wrote:


> > > If you drain the diff, you might not be able to get the diff fill nut
> > > off to refill... it's a real pain to get off.


> > Do they torque them to 90 lbs or what ?

>
> The diff fill nut is *much* worse. I finally gave up and had Pep Boys
> drain and fill

============================
For the diff. drain plug use a 10mm hex socket. I have a 1/2" to 3/8"
converter that allows me to use a 1/2" ratchet handle. That way you can
exert enough force to crack the bolt loose.
For the diff. fill plug, just "daisy chain" two combination wrenches. I
use 17mm and 19mm, hooking the open end of one wrench into the box end
of the next. That will give you enough leverage to easily remove the
fill plug.
Then use a funnel and clear plastic tubing to fill it from above.

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Old 11 Jul 2006, 06:55 pm   #10 (permalink)
mrdarrett@gmail.com
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Default Re: Camry with 207,000 miles - transmission service


Daniel wrote:
> mrdarrett@gmail.com wrote:
> > Pszemol wrote:

>
> > > > If you drain the diff, you might not be able to get the diff fill nut
> > > > off to refill... it's a real pain to get off.

>
> > > Do they torque them to 90 lbs or what ?

> >
> > The diff fill nut is *much* worse. I finally gave up and had Pep Boys
> > drain and fill

> ============================
> For the diff. drain plug use a 10mm hex socket. I have a 1/2" to 3/8"
> converter that allows me to use a 1/2" ratchet handle. That way you can
> exert enough force to crack the bolt loose.
> For the diff. fill plug, just "daisy chain" two combination wrenches. I
> use 17mm and 19mm, hooking the open end of one wrench into the box end
> of the next. That will give you enough leverage to easily remove the
> fill plug.
> Then use a funnel and clear plastic tubing to fill it from above.



.... for some value of "easily". ;-) I couldn't remove the fill plug
no matter what I tried. Plus, with all of that force on my combination
wrench (yes I tried the two wrenches) I was having visions of the car
collapsing on me despite the jackstands. I guess I'm just more
claustrophobic than your average Joe... ;-)

Thanks,

Michael

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