94 Camry, is worth $270 for clear coat Earl Scheib?

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Old 19 Jul 2006, 09:04 pm   #1 (permalink)
wannabe
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Default 94 Camry, is worth $270 for clear coat Earl Scheib?

I always thought the car wash hot wax would protect the paint but I
was sadly mistaken.

My hood, top and trunk has been burned by the California sun and the
carwash guy told me my clear coat is gone and the paint is damaged. I
looked up the E.S. price sheet and it says I can get a 2 coat paint
job for $229 and a 3 coat plus "integrated " clear coat for $499.

Is the exta money worth it for a car this old? If I handwax the $229
paint job regurlarly, will it still look decent?
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Old 20 Jul 2006, 11:04 am   #2 (permalink)
Andy Hill
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Default Re: 94 Camry, is worth $270 for clear coat Earl Scheib?

wannabe <not@applicable.org> wrote:
>I always thought the car wash hot wax would protect the paint but I
>was sadly mistaken.
>
>My hood, top and trunk has been burned by the California sun and the
>carwash guy told me my clear coat is gone and the paint is damaged. I
>looked up the E.S. price sheet and it says I can get a 2 coat paint
>job for $229 and a 3 coat plus "integrated " clear coat for $499.
>
>Is the exta money worth it for a car this old? If I handwax the $229
>paint job regurlarly, will it still look decent?
>

Not answering the question, but what do you mean by "the clear coat is gone"?
Clearcoat is a paint, it just doesn't disappear -- you'll have obvious "holes"
through to the basecoat if the clearcoat is peeling off.

If you're not seeing peeling clearcoat, I'd first see if you can bring the
finish back to snuff -- hit an area with some polish, cleaner or rubbing
compound to see what the finish looks like without the oxidation. A random
orbital waxer (or random orbit sander with a polish pad) will make the job go a
lot better. Go easy if you're using the aggressive stuff (especially rubbing
compound), as it's pretty difficult to replace paint that's been removed :-) .
http://www.web-cars.com/detail/polish.php has some good tips.

Unless Earl Scheib has changed in the last decade, they're just barely a step
above spray painting the car with cans of spray paint -- I wouldn't use them
unless I was planning on selling a car to someone I really didn't like :-}
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Old 20 Jul 2006, 11:39 am   #3 (permalink)
mack
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Default Re: 94 Camry, is worth $270 for clear coat Earl Scheib?


"Andy Hill" <andy_hill@hp.com> wrote in message
news:ao8vb21vevuin8ncr6erk0eg878tmlii8u@4ax.com...
> wannabe <not@applicable.org> wrote:


> Unless Earl Scheib has changed in the last decade, they're just barely a
> step
> above spray painting the car with cans of spray paint -- I wouldn't use
> them
> unless I was planning on selling a car to someone I really didn't like :-}


Last time I used Scheib was about 40 years ago, and I think it may depend on
which of their shops you go to. My job was better than okay, but there was
a little overspray on the bumpers which took a few minutes to remove. But
I've been to another Scheib shop (also many years ago) where there were runs
and sags on the panels, and a rather amateurish job altogether. (the kind
of job I might do if I rented a spraygun and worked under a tree.)
I really can't see painting a 12 year old car, if something can be done with
elbow grease, like rubbing compound followed by a good wax job. It's like
putting lipstick on a pig.


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Old 20 Jul 2006, 05:19 pm   #4 (permalink)
D Larsen
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Default Re: 94 Camry, is worth $270 for clear coat Earl Scheib?

Good question, and discussion !

I, too, own a 94 Camry that I have not kept up on the washing and waxing
(life is too short !). We have some major spot faults caused by sap
from the nasty pine trees it was parked under....the detail guy that I
use (every 5 years or so, whether I need it or not <g> !) said
"Sorry....nothing I can do now about those spots...."....the pine trees
are long gone now (cost me $8K to have em removed !) so my wife's 01
Eclipse (her "mid-life crisis" car <g> !) and my 04 Tundra don't suffer
the same fate.

Anyway, I now notice several small dings in the front and on the
hood....rock chips, etc I suspect....and they are starting to
rust.....my question is this :

I concede that a good polish and wax are needed, although I know it
won't make things "like new" again....however, if I do give it a good
going-over, and restore what little finish I have left, are there any
suggestions on how to treat those small dings/rust spots ? I have the
touch-up paint bottle from Toyota, but I wonder if I need to do anything
else to these small spots before putting on the touch-up paint.....I
think that sanding it out would make it look worse than it already does
<g> !

I have no intention of getting rid of my Camry anytime
soon....heck....it's paid for and it meets my needs ! I would like to
restore it to at least a semblance of its previous "good look"....any
advice is gratefully accepted !!

Dean...


wannabe wrote:
>
> I always thought the car wash hot wax would protect the paint but I
> was sadly mistaken.
>
> My hood, top and trunk has been burned by the California sun and the
> carwash guy told me my clear coat is gone and the paint is damaged. I
> looked up the E.S. price sheet and it says I can get a 2 coat paint
> job for $229 and a 3 coat plus "integrated " clear coat for $499.
>
> Is the exta money worth it for a car this old? If I handwax the $229
> paint job regurlarly, will it still look decent?

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Old 21 Jul 2006, 11:36 am   #5 (permalink)
Daniel
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Default Re: 94 Camry, is worth $270 for clear coat Earl Scheib?

wannabe wrote:
> I always thought the car wash hot wax would protect the paint but I
> was sadly mistaken.

=====================
wannabe wrote:
> I always thought the car wash hot wax would protect the paint but I
> was sadly mistaken.
>
> Is the exta money worth it for a car this old? If I handwax the $229
> paint job regurlarly, will it still look decent?

=====================
The problem with Earl Schieb and similar low cost paint jobs is that
they do not remove all the trim and glass prior to painting.
Plus even their best paint is estimated to last around five years.
I also have the '94 Camry left in the very hot Calif. sun by a prior
owner for many years.
Fortunately, I began using Zaino products before the fading became
obvious. There's just a slight color variation that you have to look at
in just the right light to see.
Zaino has SPF 40 so it will stop further degradation and restore the
finish, but it could cost around $120 and will not bring back any lost
color. The idea is that it should protect what remains from further
deterioration.
A really good paint job is several thousand dollars.

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Old 21 Jul 2006, 11:42 am   #6 (permalink)
davemac
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Default Re: 94 Camry, is worth $270 for clear coat Earl Scheib?

Dean:

To fix the chips, the best thing to do is to not try to disturb the OEM
paint around the chip. First, clean the whole affected panel you are
going to repair wih some sort of degreaser and wipe it off with lint
free paper towel.

Buy a 3M sanding pen at an autobody or auto parts store made especially
for this, or make up some very small sanding sticks by gluing some #220
sandpaper to small sticks that can sand JUST the chipped area. Sand
the chipped area, clean it again, then apply some primer from a bottle
using a fine toothpick. Only use a little bit of primer and try not to
get any on the existing paint finish, but make sure you cover the chip
area fully with primer. If you do get any primer on the OEM paint
around the chip, wipe it with a cloth with a little lacquer thinner
quickly.

When the chips are all primed and you have waited at least a few hours,
then you are ready to apply the touchup paint. What you want to do is
apply the paint to the chipped area by a wicking action from the
toothpick to the panel and let the paint flow into the chipped hollow
which is still lower than the surrounding painted OEM surface. This is
especially true for metallic and pearl type OEM finishes because you
will never get it to blend if you go outside the chipped area. I am
assuming here we are talking about small chips. Only apply enough
paint in one go to flood the chipped hollow. IE. once it appears
uniformly covered, stop and go on to the next one. Don't worry about
the applied paint appearing humped or not flush with the OEM painted
surface of the panel. The solvents in the paint will evaporate and
leave a very thin paint film. After doing all the chips, wait a few
hours and go back and hit them repeatedly like this until you build up
the paint level in the chips slightly above the panel surface.

When you are done with the touch-up paint, take some #1800 3M
waterproof sand paper, soak it in warm water with a little dishsoap for
10 mins, then fold the paper up into a 1x1" sq and LIGHTLY sand the
repaired chips either by bare hand or with a small sanding block,
making sure to keep the area lubricated with a wet cloth or spray
bottle of soapy water. The goal here is to knock the repaired chip
surface down even with the panel so it will disappear and blend right
in. Check every 5 or 6 passes with the paper by drying it off and
inspecting it to see if it is disappearing. This is sort of scary
because the sanding will dull the finish on the area around the chip,
but you can restore that easily later. Remember to only sand as much
as needed. Your chip repair may not have enough paint in it and still
be below the panel's height, so if this is the case, you need to decide
whether to stop sanding and then clean and go back to filling it up
more with touchup paint, or just stop sanding and leave it if it's good
enough.

The final step after sanding the chips is to restore the panel finish
with a 3M rubbing compound applied using a soft cloth. Apply it in one
direction. Let it dry and rub off with clean soft cotton cloth. You
may need to do this 2 or 3 times to bring the shine back up. Then wax
and you are done.

Others:

You can sometimes restore a clearcoat finish if it hasn't obviously
peeled by a clay bar, rubbing compound, or if necessary wet sanding
with #1800 or #1500 sandpaper in this order. For paint that appears
dull and oxidized or damaged by tree sap, a clay bar used with a
lubricant can actually do wonders to bring up the shine and remove
contaminants like sap. I've used one and was pretty surprised. You
can buy one with a lubricant at any auto parts store.

If your finish is old and oxidized, and you have tried a clay bar, then
I would use a good quality rubbing compound applied professionally with
a decent polisher, not these big 9" things sold to consumers as waxers.
You may want to get this done by a professional detailer for best
results because if you don't know what you are doing with a powerful
polisher, you can generate too much heat and burn the finish.

The last resort to restore a finish is wet sanding it. It is not all
that difficult but requires a light touch and knowing when to stop
because a clearcoat finish has most of its UV inhibiters near its
surface. Thin clearcoats should not be sanded at all. When
professionals are making a decision, they will use a surface film
thickness gauge which can actually measure the tickness of the
clearcoat. If you sand too much, it may look great but you will have
reduced its durability. As well, if you sand too much and blow thru
the clear, you are done. Only way to repair that is by repainting the
car. This is why it is a last resort. If the car is old and you don't
plan to keep it beyond 2 years, then go ahead.

cheers,

dave mc

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Old 21 Jul 2006, 04:51 pm   #7 (permalink)
D Larsen
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Default Re: 94 Camry, is worth $270 for clear coat Earl Scheib?

Dave,

What a great post ! You've given me (and the NG) a bunch of info and
answered my concerns....

My biggest worry was that each of the dings in my Camry's hood seem to
have a small "lip" around them...where the OEM paint seems somewhat
"raised" around the ding (like a crater on the moon !). I figured that
if I just took a wax/polish approach, I'd end up with those annoying
white dots where the polish sat in the low area of the ding, and you
could NEVER wipe 'em out ! Seems like your advice, although tedious
<g>, would eliminate this concern. Thankfully, I don't have that many
dings, so I'll give it a try !

One additional question....you mention using a toothpick for applying
the primer and paint....so do you recommend NOT using the touch-up paint
brush that comes as part of the bottle cap ?

Thanks again for the great post !

Dean...

davemac wrote:
>
> Dean:
>
> To fix the chips, the best thing to do is to not try to disturb the OEM
> paint around the chip. First, clean the whole affected panel you are
> going to repair wih some sort of degreaser and wipe it off with lint
> free paper towel.
>
> Buy a 3M sanding pen at an autobody or auto parts store made especially
> for this, or make up some very small sanding sticks by gluing some #220
> sandpaper to small sticks that can sand JUST the chipped area. Sand
> the chipped area, clean it again, then apply some primer from a bottle
> using a fine toothpick. Only use a little bit of primer and try not to
> get any on the existing paint finish, but make sure you cover the chip
> area fully with primer. If you do get any primer on the OEM paint
> around the chip, wipe it with a cloth with a little lacquer thinner
> quickly.
>
> When the chips are all primed and you have waited at least a few hours,
> then you are ready to apply the touchup paint. What you want to do is
> apply the paint to the chipped area by a wicking action from the
> toothpick to the panel and let the paint flow into the chipped hollow
> which is still lower than the surrounding painted OEM surface. This is
> especially true for metallic and pearl type OEM finishes because you
> will never get it to blend if you go outside the chipped area. I am
> assuming here we are talking about small chips. Only apply enough
> paint in one go to flood the chipped hollow. IE. once it appears
> uniformly covered, stop and go on to the next one. Don't worry about
> the applied paint appearing humped or not flush with the OEM painted
> surface of the panel. The solvents in the paint will evaporate and
> leave a very thin paint film. After doing all the chips, wait a few
> hours and go back and hit them repeatedly like this until you build up
> the paint level in the chips slightly above the panel surface.
>
> When you are done with the touch-up paint, take some #1800 3M
> waterproof sand paper, soak it in warm water with a little dishsoap for
> 10 mins, then fold the paper up into a 1x1" sq and LIGHTLY sand the
> repaired chips either by bare hand or with a small sanding block,
> making sure to keep the area lubricated with a wet cloth or spray
> bottle of soapy water. The goal here is to knock the repaired chip
> surface down even with the panel so it will disappear and blend right
> in. Check every 5 or 6 passes with the paper by drying it off and
> inspecting it to see if it is disappearing. This is sort of scary
> because the sanding will dull the finish on the area around the chip,
> but you can restore that easily later. Remember to only sand as much
> as needed. Your chip repair may not have enough paint in it and still
> be below the panel's height, so if this is the case, you need to decide
> whether to stop sanding and then clean and go back to filling it up
> more with touchup paint, or just stop sanding and leave it if it's good
> enough.
>
> The final step after sanding the chips is to restore the panel finish
> with a 3M rubbing compound applied using a soft cloth. Apply it in one
> direction. Let it dry and rub off with clean soft cotton cloth. You
> may need to do this 2 or 3 times to bring the shine back up. Then wax
> and you are done.
>
> Others:
>
> You can sometimes restore a clearcoat finish if it hasn't obviously
> peeled by a clay bar, rubbing compound, or if necessary wet sanding
> with #1800 or #1500 sandpaper in this order. For paint that appears
> dull and oxidized or damaged by tree sap, a clay bar used with a
> lubricant can actually do wonders to bring up the shine and remove
> contaminants like sap. I've used one and was pretty surprised. You
> can buy one with a lubricant at any auto parts store.
>
> If your finish is old and oxidized, and you have tried a clay bar, then
> I would use a good quality rubbing compound applied professionally with
> a decent polisher, not these big 9" things sold to consumers as waxers.
> You may want to get this done by a professional detailer for best
> results because if you don't know what you are doing with a powerful
> polisher, you can generate too much heat and burn the finish.
>
> The last resort to restore a finish is wet sanding it. It is not all
> that difficult but requires a light touch and knowing when to stop
> because a clearcoat finish has most of its UV inhibiters near its
> surface. Thin clearcoats should not be sanded at all. When
> professionals are making a decision, they will use a surface film
> thickness gauge which can actually measure the tickness of the
> clearcoat. If you sand too much, it may look great but you will have
> reduced its durability. As well, if you sand too much and blow thru
> the clear, you are done. Only way to repair that is by repainting the
> car. This is why it is a last resort. If the car is old and you don't
> plan to keep it beyond 2 years, then go ahead.
>
> cheers,
>
> dave mc

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Old 21 Jul 2006, 05:39 pm   #8 (permalink)
Andy Hill
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Default Re: 94 Camry, is worth $270 for clear coat Earl Scheib?

D Larsen <dmlarsen@bunk.compuserve.com> wrote:
>One additional question....you mention using a toothpick for applying
>the primer and paint....so do you recommend NOT using the touch-up paint
>brush that comes as part of the bottle cap ?
>
>Thanks again for the great post !
>
>Dean...
>

The brush that comes in most touch-up paint is way too big, which is why most
touchups have overflow everywhere. As mentioned, a toothpick works well. A
small hobby paintbrush (like you'd use for painting small models) isn't bad,
either.
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Old 22 Jul 2006, 06:28 am   #9 (permalink)
wannabe
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Default Re: 94 Camry, is worth $270 for clear coat Earl Scheib?

On Thu, 20 Jul 2006 16:04:27 GMT, Andy Hill <andy_hill@hp.com> wrote:

>wannabe <not@applicable.org> wrote:
>>I always thought the car wash hot wax would protect the paint but I
>>was sadly mistaken.
>>
>>My hood, top and trunk has been burned by the California sun and the
>>carwash guy told me my clear coat is gone and the paint is damaged. I
>>looked up the E.S. price sheet and it says I can get a 2 coat paint
>>job for $229 and a 3 coat plus "integrated " clear coat for $499.
>>
>>Is the exta money worth it for a car this old? If I handwax the $229
>>paint job regurlarly, will it still look decent?
>>

>Not answering the question, but what do you mean by "the clear coat is gone"?
>Clearcoat is a paint, it just doesn't disappear -- you'll have obvious "holes"
>through to the basecoat if the clearcoat is peeling off.
>
>If you're not seeing peeling clearcoat, I'd first see if you can bring the
>finish back to snuff -- hit an area with some polish, cleaner or rubbing
>compound to see what the finish looks like without the oxidation. A random
>orbital waxer (or random orbit sander with a polish pad) will make the job go a
>lot better. Go easy if you're using the aggressive stuff (especially rubbing
>compound), as it's pretty difficult to replace paint that's been removed :-) .
>http://www.web-cars.com/detail/polish.php has some good tips.
>
>Unless Earl Scheib has changed in the last decade, they're just barely a step
>above spray painting the car with cans of spray paint -- I wouldn't use them
>unless I was planning on selling a car to someone I really didn't like :-}


Thanks for the responses, guys. If it is allowable, I will take some
digital photos of my car and attach them to my next post. I didn't
see any photos of oxidation on that website, so I don't know what my
car paint's real condition is. A google search came up empty for
pictures too.

All I know is that for over 10 years, I owned a red corvette and I
never hand waxed or polished it. I took it to that same carwash and I
never had a problem with the paint.

The vette needed some repairs I didn't wan't to deal with so I traded
it in for a dark blue 94 Camry about 5 years ago. I didn' t set out
to buy a Camry. It just felt good when I took it for a test drive
(even though it had high mileage). The engine purred and it was solid
with no rattles,etc. The previous owner had kept it in good
condition. I drove it off the lot and have had no major mechanical
problems with it since.

After seeing the paint problem on my car, I noticed other Toyotas with
the same problem, so I figured that Toyatas were probably prone to
that because of cheap factory paint jobs. I think I have seen the
same thing on some Hondas.

Anyway, since I figured the carwash guy knew what he was talking
about, I just assumed that the sun, wind and rain made my clearcoat
disappear and damaged the paint underneath.

I don't want to spend a lot of time or money restoring it to a
"showcar" conditon. I'm just tired of it being an eyesore like it is
now. That is why I was asking about the E.S. paint jobs.
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Old 22 Jul 2006, 12:01 pm   #10 (permalink)
D Larsen
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Default Re: 94 Camry, is worth $270 for clear coat Earl Scheib?

Thanks, Andy....that makes sense ! The few times I've used the touch-up
bottle left me with that impression...the brush was too big for the
small spot I was using it on...I'll try the toothpick or the hobby brush
next time...

Dean...


Andy Hill wrote:
>
> D Larsen <dmlarsen@bunk.compuserve.com> wrote:
> >One additional question....you mention using a toothpick for applying
> >the primer and paint....so do you recommend NOT using the touch-up paint
> >brush that comes as part of the bottle cap ?
> >
> >Thanks again for the great post !
> >
> >Dean...
> >

> The brush that comes in most touch-up paint is way too big, which is why most
> touchups have overflow everywhere. As mentioned, a toothpick works well. A
> small hobby paintbrush (like you'd use for painting small models) isn't bad,
> either.

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