Wondering what's next wrt CNG in Toyota

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Old 09 Feb 2012, 12:19 pm   #1 (permalink)
NotMe
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Default Wondering what's next wrt CNG in Toyota

We're interested in new vehicles and so far can't get a straight answer from
any of the car/truck companies.

We've a large extended family (foster to adopt-- 49 grand kids last count)
and need new vans for people transport. Also need trucks to pull trailers
for business.

I'm trying to find out what's on the horizon for duel fuel, CNG/gas and
CNG/diesel. So far all I get are very vague sales oriented promo info. and
phone calls 'to come on down!'

Anyone have any ideas on what might be up in this regard?

TIA



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Old 09 Feb 2012, 02:38 pm   #2 (permalink)
Daniel who wants to know
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Default Re: Wondering what's next wrt CNG in Toyota

"NotMe" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message news:jh12nt$715$1@dont-email.me...
> We're interested in new vehicles and so far can't get a straight answer
> from
> any of the car/truck companies.
>
> We've a large extended family (foster to adopt-- 49 grand kids last count)
> and need new vans for people transport. Also need trucks to pull trailers
> for business.
>
> I'm trying to find out what's on the horizon for duel fuel, CNG/gas and
> CNG/diesel. So far all I get are very vague sales oriented promo info.
> and phone calls 'to come on down!'
>
> Anyone have any ideas on what might be up in this regard?
>
> TIA
>
>
>


Forget CNG, NG (methane) is a great fuel for stationary use but not so much
for mobile use since it can't be easily liquefied, hence it being CNG
instead of LNG.

I would use the natural gas for a stationary backup generator and use LPG
(propane/butane) AKA Autogas for mobile use since it can be easily liquefied
and runs at a much lower pressures than CNG hence the storage tank is also
much lighter.

There are a few companies like Roush and Bi-Phase (Schwans Foods) dabbling
in liquid phase LPG injection, but it isn't dual-fuel it is dedicated LPG.
As such around here the propane delivery trucks and Schwans trucks all run
on LPG already.

Good luck getting a factory converted or designed LPG vehicle for
non-commercial non-fleet use from any of the car companies.


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Old 09 Feb 2012, 02:51 pm   #3 (permalink)
Michael
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Default Re: Wondering what's next wrt CNG in Toyota

On Feb 9, 10:19*am, "NotMe" <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
> We're interested in new vehicles and so far can't get a straight answer from
> any of the car/truck companies.
>
> We've a large extended family (foster to adopt-- 49 grand kids last count)
> and need new vans for people transport. *Also need trucks to pull trailers
> for business.
>
> I'm trying to find out what's on the horizon for duel fuel, CNG/gas and
> CNG/diesel. *So far all I get are very vague sales oriented promo info.and
> phone calls 'to come on down!'
>
> Anyone have any ideas on what might be up in this regard?
>
> TIA



Hmm... probably not a Toyota?

Try a search here, http://www.autotrader.com , with fuel =
alternative.

CNG seems pretty interesting. The thicker walls (to store the gas at
3,000+ psi) are better able to withstand a collision than LPG propane
tanks, from what I understand. Just as long as you have public
refueling sites close by... plus it's cheaper than gasoline...


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Old 09 Feb 2012, 07:11 pm   #4 (permalink)
NotMe
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Default Re: Wondering what's next wrt CNG in Toyota


"Daniel who wants to know" <me@here.edu> wrote in message
news:jh1asj$p8j$1@dont-email.me...
> "NotMe" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message
> news:jh12nt$715$1@dont-email.me...
>> We're interested in new vehicles and so far can't get a straight answer
>> from
>> any of the car/truck companies.
>>
>> We've a large extended family (foster to adopt-- 49 grand kids last
>> count)
>> and need new vans for people transport. Also need trucks to pull
>> trailers
>> for business.
>>
>> I'm trying to find out what's on the horizon for duel fuel, CNG/gas and
>> CNG/diesel. So far all I get are very vague sales oriented promo info.
>> and phone calls 'to come on down!'
>>
>> Anyone have any ideas on what might be up in this regard?
>>
>> TIA
>>
>>
>>

>
> Forget CNG, NG (methane) is a great fuel for stationary use but not so
> much for mobile use since it can't be easily liquefied, hence it being CNG
> instead of LNG.


The technology works. I had (before Katrian) a 63 VW I had converted in the
late 60's.


>
> I would use the natural gas for a stationary backup generator and use LPG
> (propane/butane) AKA Autogas for mobile use since it can be easily
> liquefied and runs at a much lower pressures than CNG hence the storage
> tank is also much lighter.


Propane is not a viable alternative due to cost. It's higher per mile than
regular gas and seems to be tied to the cost of crude.

> There are a few companies like Roush and Bi-Phase (Schwans Foods) dabbling
> in liquid phase LPG injection, but it isn't dual-fuel it is dedicated LPG.
> As such around here the propane delivery trucks and Schwans trucks all run
> on LPG already.
>
> Good luck getting a factory converted or designed LPG vehicle for
> non-commercial non-fleet use from any of the car companies.
>



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Old 09 Feb 2012, 07:15 pm   #5 (permalink)
NotMe
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Default Re: Wondering what's next wrt CNG in Toyota


"Michael" <mrdarrett@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:50e9f88e-75b0-4484-ac5b-0f79aabc740a@9g2000pbd.googlegroups.com...
On Feb 9, 10:19 am, "NotMe" <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
> We're interested in new vehicles and so far can't get a straight answer
> from
> any of the car/truck companies.
>
> We've a large extended family (foster to adopt-- 49 grand kids last count)
> and need new vans for people transport. Also need trucks to pull trailers
> for business.
>
> I'm trying to find out what's on the horizon for duel fuel, CNG/gas and
> CNG/diesel. So far all I get are very vague sales oriented promo info. and
> phone calls 'to come on down!'
>
> Anyone have any ideas on what might be up in this regard?
>
> TIA



Hmm... probably not a Toyota?

Try a search here, http://www.autotrader.com , with fuel =
alternative.

CNG seems pretty interesting. The thicker walls (to store the gas at
3,000+ psi) are better able to withstand a collision than LPG propane
tanks, from what I understand. Just as long as you have public
refueling sites close by... plus it's cheaper than gasoline...

{{

Here about commercially it's ~ $1 per equivalent gal . If you use a home
based compressor it can be $1 to $2 per gal equivalent .




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Old 10 Feb 2012, 09:44 am   #6 (permalink)
NotMe
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Default Re: Wondering what's next wrt CNG in Toyota


"NotMe" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message news:jh1r41$o3r$2@dont-email.me...
>
> "Michael" <mrdarrett@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:50e9f88e-75b0-4484-ac5b-0f79aabc740a@9g2000pbd.googlegroups.com...
> On Feb 9, 10:19 am, "NotMe" <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>> We're interested in new vehicles and so far can't get a straight answer
>> from
>> any of the car/truck companies.
>>
>> We've a large extended family (foster to adopt-- 49 grand kids last
>> count)
>> and need new vans for people transport. Also need trucks to pull trailers
>> for business.
>>
>> I'm trying to find out what's on the horizon for duel fuel, CNG/gas and
>> CNG/diesel. So far all I get are very vague sales oriented promo info.
>> and
>> phone calls 'to come on down!'
>>
>> Anyone have any ideas on what might be up in this regard?
>>
>> TIA

>
>
> Hmm... probably not a Toyota?
>
> Try a search here, http://www.autotrader.com , with fuel =
> alternative.
>
> CNG seems pretty interesting. The thicker walls (to store the gas at
> 3,000+ psi) are better able to withstand a collision than LPG propane
> tanks, from what I understand. Just as long as you have public
> refueling sites close by... plus it's cheaper than gasoline...
>
> {{
>
> Here about commercially it's ~ $1 per equivalent gal . If you use a home
> based compressor it can be $1 to $2 per gal equivalent .
>

Clarification: that's ~$1 LESS. Around here home can be $1 to $2 per gal
equivalent ... and there seems to be a lot of NG available from the industry
for cheap and likely to get cheaper.



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Old 10 Feb 2012, 11:37 am   #7 (permalink)
Michael
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Default Re: Wondering what's next wrt CNG in Toyota

On Feb 10, 7:44*am, "NotMe" <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
> "NotMe" <m...@privacy.net> wrote in messagenews:jh1r41$o3r$2@dont-email.me...
>
> > "Michael" <mrdarr...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> >news:50e9f88e-75b0-4484-ac5b-0f79aabc740a@9g2000pbd.googlegroups.com...
> > On Feb 9, 10:19 am, "NotMe" <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
> >> We're interested in new vehicles and so far can't get a straight answer
> >> from
> >> any of the car/truck companies.

>
> >> We've a large extended family (foster to adopt-- 49 grand kids last
> >> count)
> >> and need new vans for people transport. Also need trucks to pull trailers
> >> for business.

>
> >> I'm trying to find out what's on the horizon for duel fuel, CNG/gas and
> >> CNG/diesel. So far all I get are very vague sales oriented promo info.
> >> and
> >> phone calls 'to come on down!'

>
> >> Anyone have any ideas on what might be up in this regard?

>
> >> TIA

>
> > Hmm... probably not a Toyota?

>
> > Try a search here, *http://www.autotrader.com, with fuel =
> > alternative.

>
> > CNG seems pretty interesting. *The thicker walls (to store the gas at
> > 3,000+ psi) are better able to withstand a collision than LPG propane
> > tanks, from what I understand. *Just as long as you have public
> > refueling sites close by... plus it's cheaper than gasoline...

>
> > {{

>
> > Here about commercially it's ~ $1 per equivalent gal . *If you use a home
> > based compressor it can be $1 to $2 per gal equivalent .

>
> Clarification: *that's ~$1 LESS. * Around here home can be $1 to $2 per gal
> equivalent ... and there seems to be a lot of NG available from the industry
> for cheap and likely to get cheaper.



Yup, for sure! We may be running out of oil, but we've still got
loads and loads of natural gas. Even more, if you count the methane
hydrates in the deep sea. Plus, IIRC, natural gas as a vehicle fuel
produces less CO2 and particulates, if that's important to ya. =)
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Old 10 Feb 2012, 02:09 pm   #8 (permalink)
Jeff Strickland
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Default Re: Wondering what's next wrt CNG in Toyota


"NotMe" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message news:jh3eqt$agp$2@dont-email.me...
>
> "NotMe" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message
> news:jh1r41$o3r$2@dont-email.me...
>>
>> "Michael" <mrdarrett@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:50e9f88e-75b0-4484-ac5b-0f79aabc740a@9g2000pbd.googlegroups.com...
>> On Feb 9, 10:19 am, "NotMe" <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>>> We're interested in new vehicles and so far can't get a straight answer
>>> from
>>> any of the car/truck companies.
>>>
>>> We've a large extended family (foster to adopt-- 49 grand kids last
>>> count)
>>> and need new vans for people transport. Also need trucks to pull
>>> trailers
>>> for business.
>>>
>>> I'm trying to find out what's on the horizon for duel fuel, CNG/gas and
>>> CNG/diesel. So far all I get are very vague sales oriented promo info.
>>> and
>>> phone calls 'to come on down!'
>>>
>>> Anyone have any ideas on what might be up in this regard?
>>>
>>> TIA

>>
>>
>> Hmm... probably not a Toyota?
>>
>> Try a search here, http://www.autotrader.com , with fuel =
>> alternative.
>>
>> CNG seems pretty interesting. The thicker walls (to store the gas at
>> 3,000+ psi) are better able to withstand a collision than LPG propane
>> tanks, from what I understand. Just as long as you have public
>> refueling sites close by... plus it's cheaper than gasoline...
>>
>> {{
>>
>> Here about commercially it's ~ $1 per equivalent gal . If you use a home
>> based compressor it can be $1 to $2 per gal equivalent .
>>

> Clarification: that's ~$1 LESS. Around here home can be $1 to $2 per
> gal equivalent ... and there seems to be a lot of NG available from the
> industry for cheap and likely to get cheaper.
>
>
>

Do not dilute yourself with the notion that ANYTHING related to energy will
_ever_ be cheaper than it is today.

I agree with your efforts to find a vehicle tht runs on CNG, and it should
be cheaper to fuel than the petroleum alternatives, but there is no reason
to believe that CNG will come down in price. Indeed, much of the attraction
comes from the idea that it becomes worth the effort it takes to get it when
the prices increase. If it takes $1 to get it and they can sell it for $1.50
then they won't expend much effort. But if it takes $1 to get it and they
can sell it for $3, then it becomes an attractive venture to go after it.

Having said all of that, I think Toyota as an automobile manufacturer has
little motovation to produce CNG-based cars. I think the CNG solutions will
come from the aftermarket sources in the form of retrofit kits. I'm not sure
of this, but I believe that public transit that has gone to CNG did it
through retrofitting the fleet they already had, not be acquiring new
vehicles that had CNG designed in. Maybe the past 5 or 10 years may have
seen vehicle manufacturers specifically design public transit vehicles that
were never anything but CNG, but I think that the majority of transit
vehicles that are on CNG were converted, not built that way from the start.





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Old 10 Feb 2012, 05:47 pm   #9 (permalink)
Michael
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Default Re: Wondering what's next wrt CNG in Toyota

On Feb 10, 12:09*pm, "Jeff Strickland" <crwlrj...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> "NotMe" <m...@privacy.net> wrote in messagenews:jh3eqt$agp$2@dont-email.me...
>
> > "NotMe" <m...@privacy.net> wrote in message
> >news:jh1r41$o3r$2@dont-email.me...

>
> >> "Michael" <mrdarr...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> >>news:50e9f88e-75b0-4484-ac5b-0f79aabc740a@9g2000pbd.googlegroups.com...
> >> On Feb 9, 10:19 am, "NotMe" <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
> >>> We're interested in new vehicles and so far can't get a straight answer
> >>> from
> >>> any of the car/truck companies.

>
> >>> We've a large extended family (foster to adopt-- 49 grand kids last
> >>> count)
> >>> and need new vans for people transport. Also need trucks to pull
> >>> trailers
> >>> for business.

>
> >>> I'm trying to find out what's on the horizon for duel fuel, CNG/gas and
> >>> CNG/diesel. So far all I get are very vague sales oriented promo info..
> >>> and
> >>> phone calls 'to come on down!'

>
> >>> Anyone have any ideas on what might be up in this regard?

>
> >>> TIA

>
> >> Hmm... probably not a Toyota?

>
> >> Try a search here, *http://www.autotrader.com, with fuel =
> >> alternative.

>
> >> CNG seems pretty interesting. *The thicker walls (to store the gas at
> >> 3,000+ psi) are better able to withstand a collision than LPG propane
> >> tanks, from what I understand. *Just as long as you have public
> >> refueling sites close by... plus it's cheaper than gasoline...

>
> >> {{

>
> >> Here about commercially it's ~ $1 per equivalent gal . *If you use ahome
> >> based compressor it can be $1 to $2 per gal equivalent .

>
> > Clarification: *that's ~$1 LESS. * Around here home can be $1 to $2per
> > gal equivalent ... and there seems to be a lot of NG available from the
> > industry for cheap and likely to get cheaper.

>
> Do not dilute yourself with the notion that ANYTHING related to energy will
> _ever_ be cheaper than it is today.
>
> I agree with your efforts to find a vehicle tht runs on CNG, and it should
> be cheaper to fuel than the petroleum alternatives, but there is no reason
> to believe that CNG will come down in price. Indeed, much of the attraction
> comes from the idea that it becomes worth the effort it takes to get it when
> the prices increase. If it takes $1 to get it and they can sell it for $1..50
> then they won't expend much effort. But if it takes $1 to get it and they
> can sell it for $3, then it becomes an attractive venture to go after it.



Sure.. but here's to hoping that natural gas won't go up as quickly as
oil will...


> Having said all of that, I think Toyota as an automobile manufacturer has
> little motovation to produce CNG-based cars. I think the CNG solutions will
> come from the aftermarket sources in the form of retrofit kits. I'm not sure
> of this, but I believe that public transit that has gone to CNG did it
> through retrofitting the fleet they already had, not be acquiring new
> vehicles that had CNG designed in. Maybe the past 5 or 10 years may have
> seen vehicle manufacturers specifically design public transit vehicles that
> were never anything but CNG, but I think that the majority of transit
> vehicles that are on CNG were converted, not built that way from the start.



Those retrofit kits seem pretty expensive... getting a used CNG
vehicle say from autotrader looks way cheaper.

On the other hand, it's kind of hard to achieve 3000+ psi pressure
without electricity... another survivalist scenario to consider.
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Old 10 Feb 2012, 07:23 pm   #10 (permalink)
Jeff Strickland
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Default Re: Wondering what's next wrt CNG in Toyota


"Michael" <mrdarrett@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:e524939a-0504-4935-b4bd-50e5029bab0c@pq6g2000pbc.googlegroups.com...
On Feb 10, 12:09 pm, "Jeff Strickland" <crwlrj...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> "NotMe" <m...@privacy.net> wrote in
> messagenews:jh3eqt$agp$2@dont-email.me...
>
> > "NotMe" <m...@privacy.net> wrote in message
> >news:jh1r41$o3r$2@dont-email.me...

>
> >> "Michael" <mrdarr...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> >>news:50e9f88e-75b0-4484-ac5b-0f79aabc740a@9g2000pbd.googlegroups.com...
> >> On Feb 9, 10:19 am, "NotMe" <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
> >>> We're interested in new vehicles and so far can't get a straight
> >>> answer
> >>> from
> >>> any of the car/truck companies.

>
> >>> We've a large extended family (foster to adopt-- 49 grand kids last
> >>> count)
> >>> and need new vans for people transport. Also need trucks to pull
> >>> trailers
> >>> for business.

>
> >>> I'm trying to find out what's on the horizon for duel fuel, CNG/gas
> >>> and
> >>> CNG/diesel. So far all I get are very vague sales oriented promo info.
> >>> and
> >>> phone calls 'to come on down!'

>
> >>> Anyone have any ideas on what might be up in this regard?

>
> >>> TIA

>
> >> Hmm... probably not a Toyota?

>
> >> Try a search here, http://www.autotrader.com, with fuel =
> >> alternative.

>
> >> CNG seems pretty interesting. The thicker walls (to store the gas at
> >> 3,000+ psi) are better able to withstand a collision than LPG propane
> >> tanks, from what I understand. Just as long as you have public
> >> refueling sites close by... plus it's cheaper than gasoline...

>
> >> {{

>
> >> Here about commercially it's ~ $1 per equivalent gal . If you use a
> >> home
> >> based compressor it can be $1 to $2 per gal equivalent .

>
> > Clarification: that's ~$1 LESS. Around here home can be $1 to $2 per
> > gal equivalent ... and there seems to be a lot of NG available from the
> > industry for cheap and likely to get cheaper.

>
> Do not dilute yourself with the notion that ANYTHING related to energy
> will
> _ever_ be cheaper than it is today.
>
> I agree with your efforts to find a vehicle tht runs on CNG, and it should
> be cheaper to fuel than the petroleum alternatives, but there is no reason
> to believe that CNG will come down in price. Indeed, much of the
> attraction
> comes from the idea that it becomes worth the effort it takes to get it
> when
> the prices increase. If it takes $1 to get it and they can sell it for
> $1.50
> then they won't expend much effort. But if it takes $1 to get it and they
> can sell it for $3, then it becomes an attractive venture to go after it.



Sure.. but here's to hoping that natural gas won't go up as quickly as
oil will...


> Having said all of that, I think Toyota as an automobile manufacturer has
> little motovation to produce CNG-based cars. I think the CNG solutions
> will
> come from the aftermarket sources in the form of retrofit kits. I'm not
> sure
> of this, but I believe that public transit that has gone to CNG did it
> through retrofitting the fleet they already had, not be acquiring new
> vehicles that had CNG designed in. Maybe the past 5 or 10 years may have
> seen vehicle manufacturers specifically design public transit vehicles
> that
> were never anything but CNG, but I think that the majority of transit
> vehicles that are on CNG were converted, not built that way from the
> start.



Those retrofit kits seem pretty expensive... getting a used CNG
vehicle say from autotrader looks way cheaper.

On the other hand, it's kind of hard to achieve 3000+ psi pressure
without electricity... another survivalist scenario to consider.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++
If you can get the car to run, it should not be to difficult to have a pump
that can produce the pressure needed. That seems like the small hurdle, in
the grand scheme of things.




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