Want to understand car behavior with kaput battery

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Old 23 Mar 2012, 02:37 am   #1 (permalink)
brassplyer
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Default Want to understand car behavior with kaput battery

I wanted to see if I could rejuvenate a battery that's dead and
several years old but never saw much use. Sat in a car that mostly
sits in the garage.

I stuck it in my '89 Toyota Cressida, cleaned the terminals on the
battery and the cable ends, hooked them up and jumped it with the good
battery. Car fired after a sluggish crank and ran but it idled high
and the idle never really came down even after the car got warm.
Normally when warm it idles around 600 RPM in gear. With this hinky
battery it would idle in gear around 1000 and about 1500 in neutral.
Also noticed the lights flicker from time to time.

After running around for about 15 mins, turned it off, no restart. Not
even enough juice to get a grunt out of the starter. Okay, clearly the
battery is beyond salvaging. Put the good battery back in, everything
back to normal.

So - why was I seeing the symptoms I was seeing with that DOA battery
in place?

Thanks
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Old 23 Mar 2012, 03:14 am   #2 (permalink)
Steve W.
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Default Re: Want to understand car behavior with kaput battery

brassplyer wrote:
> I wanted to see if I could rejuvenate a battery that's dead and
> several years old but never saw much use. Sat in a car that mostly
> sits in the garage.
>
> I stuck it in my '89 Toyota Cressida, cleaned the terminals on the
> battery and the cable ends, hooked them up and jumped it with the good
> battery. Car fired after a sluggish crank and ran but it idled high
> and the idle never really came down even after the car got warm.
> Normally when warm it idles around 600 RPM in gear. With this hinky
> battery it would idle in gear around 1000 and about 1500 in neutral.
> Also noticed the lights flicker from time to time.
>
> After running around for about 15 mins, turned it off, no restart. Not
> even enough juice to get a grunt out of the starter. Okay, clearly the
> battery is beyond salvaging. Put the good battery back in, everything
> back to normal.
>
> So - why was I seeing the symptoms I was seeing with that DOA battery
> in place?
>
> Thanks



That battery is probably shorted internally and your lucky it didn't
just blow up or burn out the regulator and alternator.

The battery being shorted would max out the alternator which doesn't
leave a lot of power for anything else.
None of the computer items would have been seeing the correct voltage
which is why it didn't run right.

Normal car batteries can handle about one time going completely dead and
being recharged, IF they get charged real soon. Let them set around and
they sulfate up and short internally, then you have a doorstop.

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Old 23 Mar 2012, 10:44 am   #3 (permalink)
jim beam
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Default Re: Want to understand car behavior with kaput battery

On 03/23/2012 12:14 AM, Steve W. wrote:
> brassplyer wrote:
>> I wanted to see if I could rejuvenate a battery that's dead and
>> several years old but never saw much use. Sat in a car that mostly
>> sits in the garage.
>>
>> I stuck it in my '89 Toyota Cressida, cleaned the terminals on the
>> battery and the cable ends, hooked them up and jumped it with the good
>> battery. Car fired after a sluggish crank and ran but it idled high
>> and the idle never really came down even after the car got warm.
>> Normally when warm it idles around 600 RPM in gear. With this hinky
>> battery it would idle in gear around 1000 and about 1500 in neutral.
>> Also noticed the lights flicker from time to time.
>>
>> After running around for about 15 mins, turned it off, no restart. Not
>> even enough juice to get a grunt out of the starter. Okay, clearly the
>> battery is beyond salvaging. Put the good battery back in, everything
>> back to normal.
>>
>> So - why was I seeing the symptoms I was seeing with that DOA battery
>> in place?
>>
>> Thanks

>
>
> That battery is probably shorted internally and your lucky it didn't
> just blow up or burn out the regulator and alternator.
>
> The battery being shorted would max out the alternator which doesn't
> leave a lot of power for anything else.
> None of the computer items would have been seeing the correct voltage
> which is why it didn't run right.
>
> Normal car batteries can handle about one time going completely dead and
> being recharged, IF they get charged real soon. Let them set around and
> they sulfate up and short internally, then you have a doorstop.
>


what he said.

furthermore, you should never try to charge a battery in this way for
the reasons steve states, particularly if its condition is "unknown".
use a proper regulated charger, then test the "charged" battery with a
high draw load tester. if it passes that test, /then/ you can put it in
a car.


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Old 23 Mar 2012, 11:03 am   #4 (permalink)
jim beam
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Default Re: Want to understand car behavior with kaput battery

On 03/23/2012 07:44 AM, jim beam wrote:
> On 03/23/2012 12:14 AM, Steve W. wrote:
>> brassplyer wrote:
>>> I wanted to see if I could rejuvenate a battery that's dead and
>>> several years old but never saw much use. Sat in a car that mostly
>>> sits in the garage.
>>>
>>> I stuck it in my '89 Toyota Cressida, cleaned the terminals on the
>>> battery and the cable ends, hooked them up and jumped it with the good
>>> battery. Car fired after a sluggish crank and ran but it idled high
>>> and the idle never really came down even after the car got warm.
>>> Normally when warm it idles around 600 RPM in gear. With this hinky
>>> battery it would idle in gear around 1000 and about 1500 in neutral.
>>> Also noticed the lights flicker from time to time.
>>>
>>> After running around for about 15 mins, turned it off, no restart. Not
>>> even enough juice to get a grunt out of the starter. Okay, clearly the
>>> battery is beyond salvaging. Put the good battery back in, everything
>>> back to normal.
>>>
>>> So - why was I seeing the symptoms I was seeing with that DOA battery
>>> in place?
>>>
>>> Thanks

>>
>>
>> That battery is probably shorted internally and your lucky it didn't
>> just blow up or burn out the regulator and alternator.
>>
>> The battery being shorted would max out the alternator which doesn't
>> leave a lot of power for anything else.
>> None of the computer items would have been seeing the correct voltage
>> which is why it didn't run right.
>>
>> Normal car batteries can handle about one time going completely dead and
>> being recharged, IF they get charged real soon. Let them set around and
>> they sulfate up and short internally, then you have a doorstop.
>>

>
> what he said.
>
> furthermore, you should never try to charge a battery in this way for
> the reasons steve states, particularly if its condition is "unknown".
> use a proper regulated charger, then test the "charged" battery with a
> high draw load tester. if it passes that test, /then/ you can put it in
> a car.
>
>


<http://www.samsclub.com/sams/shop/product.jsp?productId=prod862835&pid=CSE_Froogle&c i_src=14110944&ci_sku=sku1054386>

for $20, it's crazy not to have one.


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Old 23 Mar 2012, 11:43 am   #5 (permalink)
Bill
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Default Re: Want to understand car behavior with kaput battery

In article <9ba23fef-6d2a-48eb-a840-
1088cbb9884b@l7g2000vbw.googlegroups.com>, brassplyer@yahoo.com says...
>
> I wanted to see if I could rejuvenate a battery that's dead and
> several years old but never saw much use. Sat in a car that mostly
> sits in the garage.
>
> I stuck it in my '89 Toyota Cressida, cleaned the terminals on the
> battery and the cable ends, hooked them up and jumped it with the good
> battery. Car fired after a sluggish crank and ran but it idled high
> and the idle never really came down even after the car got warm.
> Normally when warm it idles around 600 RPM in gear. With this hinky
> battery it would idle in gear around 1000 and about 1500 in neutral.
> Also noticed the lights flicker from time to time.
>
> After running around for about 15 mins, turned it off, no restart. Not
> even enough juice to get a grunt out of the starter. Okay, clearly the
> battery is beyond salvaging. Put the good battery back in, everything
> back to normal.
>
> So - why was I seeing the symptoms I was seeing with that DOA battery
> in place?
>
> Thanks


You would need to place a voltmeter on the battery to see what was going
on. But a battery with a low charge could drag down the car's voltage...

That would be like a large electrical load to the car computer. And the
computer would run the car at high RPM's to generate more electricity.

Car computers are also designed to increase RPMs when there loads like
A/C or the engine is cold.

As for charging a low battery, that can take 24 hours with a battery
charger. If it is too low, some chargers will not turn on. You can get a
charger to start charging by jumping the battery with another battery.

A battery which is 12.75 volts with the charger removed is fully
charged. And if it holds that charge overnight without the charger
connected, then the battery is holding a charge.

I don't think that battery could be recharged if it was totally dead
though?
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Old 23 Mar 2012, 12:11 pm   #6 (permalink)
jim beam
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Default Re: Want to understand car behavior with kaput battery

On 03/23/2012 08:43 AM, Bill wrote:
> In article<9ba23fef-6d2a-48eb-a840-
> 1088cbb9884b@l7g2000vbw.googlegroups.com>, brassplyer@yahoo.com says...
>>
>> I wanted to see if I could rejuvenate a battery that's dead and
>> several years old but never saw much use. Sat in a car that mostly
>> sits in the garage.
>>
>> I stuck it in my '89 Toyota Cressida, cleaned the terminals on the
>> battery and the cable ends, hooked them up and jumped it with the good
>> battery. Car fired after a sluggish crank and ran but it idled high
>> and the idle never really came down even after the car got warm.
>> Normally when warm it idles around 600 RPM in gear. With this hinky
>> battery it would idle in gear around 1000 and about 1500 in neutral.
>> Also noticed the lights flicker from time to time.
>>
>> After running around for about 15 mins, turned it off, no restart. Not
>> even enough juice to get a grunt out of the starter. Okay, clearly the
>> battery is beyond salvaging. Put the good battery back in, everything
>> back to normal.
>>
>> So - why was I seeing the symptoms I was seeing with that DOA battery
>> in place?
>>
>> Thanks

>
> You would need to place a voltmeter on the battery to see what was going
> on.


incorrect - open circuit voltage tells you nothing about battery health.


> But a battery with a low charge could drag down the car's voltage...
>
> That would be like a large electrical load to the car computer. And the
> computer would run the car at high RPM's to generate more electricity.
>
> Car computers are also designed to increase RPMs when there loads like
> A/C or the engine is cold.
>
> As for charging a low battery, that can take 24 hours with a battery
> charger. If it is too low, some chargers will not turn on. You can get a
> charger to start charging by jumping the battery with another battery.
>
> A battery which is 12.75 volts with the charger removed is fully
> charged.


incorrect - open circuit voltage tells you nothing about battery health.


> And if it holds that charge overnight without the charger
> connected, then the battery is holding a charge.


incorrect - open circuit voltage tells you nothing about battery health.

>
> I don't think that battery could be recharged if it was totally dead
> though?


i don't understand - if you don't know this stuff, and you clearly
don't, why do you "answer"? as questions about /why/, sure, but "answer"???


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Old 23 Mar 2012, 12:43 pm   #7 (permalink)
mike
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Default Re: Want to understand car behavior with kaput battery

On 3/23/2012 12:14 AM, Steve W. wrote:
> brassplyer wrote:
>> I wanted to see if I could rejuvenate a battery that's dead and
>> several years old but never saw much use. Sat in a car that mostly
>> sits in the garage.
>>
>> I stuck it in my '89 Toyota Cressida, cleaned the terminals on the
>> battery and the cable ends, hooked them up and jumped it with the good
>> battery. Car fired after a sluggish crank and ran but it idled high
>> and the idle never really came down even after the car got warm.
>> Normally when warm it idles around 600 RPM in gear. With this hinky
>> battery it would idle in gear around 1000 and about 1500 in neutral.
>> Also noticed the lights flicker from time to time.
>>
>> After running around for about 15 mins, turned it off, no restart. Not
>> even enough juice to get a grunt out of the starter. Okay, clearly the
>> battery is beyond salvaging. Put the good battery back in, everything
>> back to normal.
>>
>> So - why was I seeing the symptoms I was seeing with that DOA battery
>> in place?
>>
>> Thanks

>
>
> That battery is probably shorted internally and your lucky it didn't
> just blow up or burn out the regulator and alternator.
>
> The battery being shorted would max out the alternator which doesn't
> leave a lot of power for anything else.
> None of the computer items would have been seeing the correct voltage
> which is why it didn't run right.
>
> Normal car batteries can handle about one time going completely dead and
> being recharged, IF they get charged real soon. Let them set around and
> they sulfate up and short internally, then you have a doorstop.
>

given the symptoms
dead and won't take any charge at all
been sitting for a long time

I'd vote for serious sulphation instead of shorted.
You're lucky you didn't blow up some electronics with high peak
voltage out of the alternator without battery buffering the average.
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Old 23 Mar 2012, 01:46 pm   #8 (permalink)
NotMe
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Default Re: Want to understand car behavior with kaput battery


"brassplyer" <brassplyer@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:9ba23fef-6d2a-48eb-a840-1088cbb9884b@l7g2000vbw.googlegroups.com...
>I wanted to see if I could rejuvenate a battery that's dead and
> several years old but never saw much use. Sat in a car that mostly
> sits in the garage.
>
> I stuck it in my '89 Toyota Cressida, cleaned the terminals on the
> battery and the cable ends, hooked them up and jumped it with the good
> battery. Car fired after a sluggish crank and ran but it idled high
> and the idle never really came down even after the car got warm.
> Normally when warm it idles around 600 RPM in gear. With this hinky
> battery it would idle in gear around 1000 and about 1500 in neutral.
> Also noticed the lights flicker from time to time.
>
> After running around for about 15 mins, turned it off, no restart. Not
> even enough juice to get a grunt out of the starter. Okay, clearly the
> battery is beyond salvaging. Put the good battery back in, everything
> back to normal.
>
> So - why was I seeing the symptoms I was seeing with that DOA battery
> in place?
>
> Thanks


You need a new battery as well as new tires (spare included) you may have
damaged the alternator.



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Old 23 Mar 2012, 06:34 pm   #9 (permalink)
Paul in Houston TX
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Default Re: Want to understand car behavior with kaput battery

brassplyer wrote:
> I wanted to see if I could rejuvenate a battery that's dead and
> several years old but never saw much use. Sat in a car that mostly
> sits in the garage.
>
> I stuck it in my '89 Toyota Cressida, cleaned the terminals on the
> battery and the cable ends, hooked them up and jumped it with the good
> battery. Car fired after a sluggish crank and ran but it idled high
> and the idle never really came down even after the car got warm.
> Normally when warm it idles around 600 RPM in gear. With this hinky
> battery it would idle in gear around 1000 and about 1500 in neutral.
> Also noticed the lights flicker from time to time.
>
> After running around for about 15 mins, turned it off, no restart. Not
> even enough juice to get a grunt out of the starter. Okay, clearly the
> battery is beyond salvaging. Put the good battery back in, everything
> back to normal.
>
> So - why was I seeing the symptoms I was seeing with that DOA battery
> in place?
>
> Thanks

My guess would be opposite that of Steve.
The battery had very little to no conductance
or damping of the alternator output.
A good battery acts somewhat as a capacitor and
stabilizes the alternator output.
It would be similar to starting your car then
taking off a battery cable. Watch your lights flicker
and electronics go poof due to high voltage.
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Old 24 Mar 2012, 10:53 am   #10 (permalink)
Nate Nagel
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Default Re: Want to understand car behavior with kaput battery

On 03/23/2012 02:37 AM, brassplyer wrote:
> I wanted to see if I could rejuvenate a battery that's dead and
> several years old but never saw much use. Sat in a car that mostly
> sits in the garage.
>
> I stuck it in my '89 Toyota Cressida, cleaned the terminals on the
> battery and the cable ends, hooked them up and jumped it with the good
> battery. Car fired after a sluggish crank and ran but it idled high
> and the idle never really came down even after the car got warm.
> Normally when warm it idles around 600 RPM in gear. With this hinky
> battery it would idle in gear around 1000 and about 1500 in neutral.
> Also noticed the lights flicker from time to time.
>
> After running around for about 15 mins, turned it off, no restart. Not
> even enough juice to get a grunt out of the starter. Okay, clearly the
> battery is beyond salvaging. Put the good battery back in, everything
> back to normal.
>
> So - why was I seeing the symptoms I was seeing with that DOA battery
> in place?
>
> Thanks


Odd stuff can happen to the ECM when voltage is not optimal. If it runs
well with the good battery I would not lose a lot of sleep over it.

nate

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