Official: Toyota sells six of 10 of hybrids in California

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Old 01 Aug 2013, 03:09 am   #1 (permalink)
sjmmail2000-247@yahoo.co.uk
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Default Official: Toyota sells six of 10 of hybrids in California

In an apparent shot back at Ford's increasing market share of electrified vehicles and claim that it accepts more Prius trade-ins for its own hybrids than any other car, Toyota has flexed a muscle and played the numbers game to put the Blue Oval in its place. Leaning on its hybrid market dominance in California, the Japanese automaker stated that six out of 10 hybrids sold in the Golden State are Toyota models. And it keeps coming: Year-to-date through May 2013, Toyota sold five times more hybri...
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Old 02 Aug 2013, 01:33 pm   #2 (permalink)
marco
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Default Re: Official: Toyota sells six of 10 of hybrids in California

what's the cost criteria, for buying a Hybrid VS Non-hybrid?

Is it simply miles driven?
The higher the mileage driven, it pays more to buy Hybrid?

I would like a Hybrid, but I don't drive much [5,000 miles a year].

marc
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Old 02 Aug 2013, 04:08 pm   #3 (permalink)
Jeff Strickland
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Default Re: Official: Toyota sells six of 10 of hybrids in California


"marco" <21blackswan@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:439e8364-1dd7-433b-ab51-74c29e514985@googlegroups.com...
> what's the cost criteria, for buying a Hybrid VS Non-hybrid?
>
> Is it simply miles driven?
> The higher the mileage driven, it pays more to buy Hybrid?
>
> I would like a Hybrid, but I don't drive much [5,000 miles a year].
>
> marc


Buy a hybrid, any hybrid, because it makes you feel good to go green. DO NOT
DO IT FOR THE SAVINGS IN OPERATIONAL COSTS relative to buying gasoline.

If there was a car produced on both hybrid and non-hybrid platforms, the
hybrid model would cost more to buy but less to operate. The mathimatical
reality is that the operational savings would take longer to realize than
the typical ownership period lasts. If you saved a few cents per mile on a
car that costs $5000 more to buy, then you divide $5000 by the amount saved
to find how many miles it takes to recover the cost. Divide the miles it
takes by the miles you drive per year, and if the result is a number greater
than your expected ownership term, you will never see the savings. Just to
put some perspective on this, if the hybrid package costs $5000, and the
fuel savings was $0.05 per mile, it would take 100,000 miles of operating to
break even on the cost-up you paid to go hybrid. You (YOU personally are an
aberation) would have to keep the car for 20 years to save enough gasoline
costs to cover the premium they collect on a hybrid vehicle. And, I am
completely ignoring the added costs of dealing with the batteries, although
these costs are likely to be mitigated through lower engine maintenance
costs. Assuming the normal driver travels about 15,000 miles per year, then
it would still take almost 7 years to recover the cost of going hybrid, and
most of us own a car for about 3.5 years. (I don't know that my numbers are
anywhere near the correct ones to use, but they illustrate the math that you
need to do to see if hybrid works for you.)

Is hybrid good? Probably yes. I have no plan to buy a hybrid but my instinct
is that anything we can do to wean from gasoline is a good thing. But saving
money on gas does not justify the purchase of a hybrid automobile. The
environment is a good reason, the economy is not.




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Old 02 Aug 2013, 04:21 pm   #4 (permalink)
marco
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Default Re: Official: Toyota sells six of 10 of hybrids in California

thanks Jeff,

I'm talking mostly about long term money costs.

Not that I don't care, but I think I've heard the argument,
that Electric power plants run - to charge the battery?!

marc
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Old 02 Aug 2013, 05:14 pm   #5 (permalink)
Jeff Strickland
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Default Re: Official: Toyota sells six of 10 of hybrids in California


"marco" <21blackswan@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:050a3599-433f-4e1a-8ca3-9dcb8e58f5b7@googlegroups.com...
> thanks Jeff,
>
> I'm talking mostly about long term money costs.
>
> Not that I don't care, but I think I've heard the argument,
> that Electric power plants run - to charge the battery?!
>
> marc



Of course power plants run to charge the battery.

The question is if the carbon footprint to produce the electricity needed to
charge up the car is greater than, equal to, or less than the carbon
footprint of the gasoline that is burned to get your car from here to there.
If greater or equal to the gasoline option, then there is no environmental
upside to an electric car. Indeed, the highly pollutive nature of a battery,
hundreds of pounds of them, would make the electric car even worse than the
gasoline equipped version.

Not to mention the cost of the underlying energy. There is the dollar-cost
of the energy and there is the environmental cost. And that's just the
energy, not the cost savings of one vs.the other. You asked about hybrids,
but seem to have switched mid-stream to full electric.

There are electric hybrid where you plug them in to the grid, and there are
hybrids that collect and store energy from gasoline engine operations to be
used at low speeds -- the savings come when the vehicle does a high
percentage of low speed operation where the vehicle can be moved via battery
power. In my earlier post, I was talking about a hybrid that is charged by
the gasoline engine, not one that is plugged into the grid.

Plugging into the grid has a cost that I have no clue how to calculate. But
electricity is very expensive, it is not free. When they run the TV
commercial that goes, "Where can you go on Twenty Dollars?", they ignore the
electrical cost entirely. If you have a tank of gas that can carry you 350
miles for 50 dollars of gasoline, or whatever, then your cost per mile is
$0.143 (14.3 cents). You have to understand what the electric charges are
for the distance you can go to see what the cost per mile is, then you have
to find the difference (savings) and divide that into the premium you paid
vs the same car without the hybrid capability. The result of dividing the
cost-up by the savings is the number of miles you must travel to break even.
Divide the number of miles by the average miles per year, and you will find
how many years you have to look forward to before you realize the savings.

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Old 03 Aug 2013, 08:59 am   #6 (permalink)
Elmo P. Shagnasty
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Default Re: Official: Toyota sells six of 10 of hybrids in California

In article <kth38t$b03$1@dont-email.me>,
"Jeff Strickland" <crwlrjeff@yahoo.com> wrote:

> and
> most of us own a car for about 3.5 years.


which insane in and of itself.

Getting rid of a modern car that quickly is the stupidest financial
decision anyone can make--but here you are, writing about the hybrid
financial decision but using this insanity as your basis.

So your original general conclusion:

> Buy a hybrid, any hybrid, because it makes you feel good to go green. DO NOT
> DO IT FOR THE SAVINGS IN OPERATIONAL COSTS relative to buying gasoline.


is based on an utterly insane premise, and therefore is completely
faulty.

When you assume that one does or should get rid of a car every 3.5
years, you have no standing to discuss how some other aspect of car
ownership "makes no financial sense".

5000 miles/year? If your goal is financial advice, consider: This guy
has no business buying a new car. (Few people do.) This guy should buy
a used Corolla or Civic and move on with his life. But he can also buy
a used Prius or Civic Hybrid and achieve both goals: save money AND
specifically save money at the pump.

I just bought, from my neighbor, an 03 Civic Hybrid. Manual trans.
Still gets 40-45mpg, even at 100K on the clock. Perfectly fine shape.
Spent not a lot of money on it, and now the wife can drive that while
she leaves the 15mpg van in the garage for the most part. Or we can
sell the van. Whatever.
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Old 03 Aug 2013, 09:03 am   #7 (permalink)
Elmo P. Shagnasty
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Default Re: Official: Toyota sells six of 10 of hybrids in California

In article <050a3599-433f-4e1a-8ca3-9dcb8e58f5b7@googlegroups.com>,
marco <21blackswan@gmail.com> wrote:

> thanks Jeff,
>
> I'm talking mostly about long term money costs.
>
> Not that I don't care, but I think I've heard the argument,
> that Electric power plants run - to charge the battery?!
>
> marc


A hybrid like a Prius is a pure gasoline car, just like any other
gasoline car. Its ONLY source of energy is gasoline that you put into
the tank. It has some fancy tricks to manage and use the energy of that
gasoline WAY better than other cars, that's all.

Plug-in hybrids in general have bigger batteries that can run the car
further than a non-plug-in hybrid, and those cars *can* be plugged into
the grid to fill those batteries, but their battery-only range is still
minor and the car is still based around the gasoline engine.

the Chevy Volt is a plug-in hybrid that takes the concept to the
extreme; its electric-only range is considerable, it can generally
handle commute duties using only the electricity that it got off of the
grid, but it can also go cross-country because it is still based around
a gasoline engine that will drive the car when the grid-provided battery
juice is gone.

Electric cars are what you describe--the sole source of energy for those
cars is from the electric grid.
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Old 03 Aug 2013, 09:05 am   #8 (permalink)
Elmo P. Shagnasty
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Default Re: Official: Toyota sells six of 10 of hybrids in California

In article <kth731$vqo$1@dont-email.me>,
"Jeff Strickland" <crwlrjeff@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Plugging into the grid has a cost that I have no clue how to calculate. But
> electricity is very expensive, it is not free.


The numbers I've seen is around the equivalent of $2/gal gasoline.

It's easy to calculate--you use the same method that you used to tell
him buying a hybrid car is bollocks. It's just a cost per mile, and
anyone can look at his electric bill and know how much electricity costs
the same way he can look at the sign and know how much gasoline costs.
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Old 03 Aug 2013, 12:00 pm   #9 (permalink)
marco
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Default Re: Official: Toyota sells six of 10 of hybrids in California

I have a 2003 Avalon with 39,000 miles on it,
so you can see I don't drive much,
and don't concern myself with gas prices.

I have few expenses and can afford a new car; one of my few luxuries.

I'm thinking of a 2014 Avalon, Hybrid vs Non-Hybrid.
I would really like a Hybrid,
but I think they cost about 5,000 more.

marc
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Old 03 Aug 2013, 01:02 pm   #10 (permalink)
Elmo P. Shagnasty
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Default Re: Official: Toyota sells six of 10 of hybrids in California

In article <2b46e8c9-a64e-4971-9f0e-199837e06ff2@googlegroups.com>,
marco <21blackswan@gmail.com> wrote:

> I have a 2003 Avalon with 39,000 miles on it,
> so you can see I don't drive much,
> and don't concern myself with gas prices.
>
> I have few expenses and can afford a new car; one of my few luxuries.
>
> I'm thinking of a 2014 Avalon, Hybrid vs Non-Hybrid.
> I would really like a Hybrid,
> but I think they cost about 5,000 more.


I slobber over the new Avalon Hybrid.

I took a test drive; I saw an indicated 47mpg over my 8 mile mixed loop.
So I believe the 40mpg sticker.

40mpg on a pure-dee luxury car. Damn. I have to say, after 6 years of
Prius driving I can't see going back down to 24mpg for any reason--and
if I can move seriously upmarket and keep the low gasoline usage and low
cost per mile, that's highly attractive.

I *have* been looking at autotrader.com and have found some very nice
already used Avalon Hybrids for sale around the country. To save the
hybrid difference but still have the factory warranty, I'll happily give
up the first 10K on the odometer.
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