Issue with brakes

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Old 12 Sep 2013, 07:48 am   #1 (permalink)
ByTor
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Default Issue with brakes



1996 Toyota Tercel 162k miles Front rotors rear drums

Lately this has been happening more often, it was slight in the past for
several months. I checked my fluid it is full, clear & solid with no air
present.

It appears that everytime on a down slope, sometimes exiting off a
highway ramp, or pulling into a parking spot my brake pedal weakens &
nearly goes to the floor. But often once the brakes are pumped they
appear to work normally. Sometimes it feels like, in the above mentioned
situations, they feel like they will fail.

I'm not sure but it appears when I'm at higher rpm's the brakes are fine
as I will tap them when driving at higher speeds. This issue seems to be
always present when in some type of deceleration mode, turning, or
pulling in & out of a parking spot.

Thanks for any suggestions.



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Old 12 Sep 2013, 12:55 pm   #2 (permalink)
Geoff Welsh
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Default Re: Issue with brakes

ByTor wrote:
>
>
> 1996 Toyota Tercel 162k miles Front rotors rear drums
>
> ......my brake pedal weakens&
> nearly goes to the floor. But often once the brakes are pumped they
> appear to work normally.....


that's the text book example of a bad master cylinder.

GW
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Old 12 Sep 2013, 01:38 pm   #3 (permalink)
Jeff Strickland
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Default Re: Issue with brakes


"ByTor" <ByTor@snowdog.com> wrote in message
news:5231a9fa$0$61504$c3e8da3$f017e9df@news.astraw eb.com...
>
>
> 1996 Toyota Tercel 162k miles Front rotors rear drums
>
> Lately this has been happening more often, it was slight in the past for
> several months. I checked my fluid it is full, clear & solid with no air
> present.
>
> It appears that everytime on a down slope, sometimes exiting off a
> highway ramp, or pulling into a parking spot my brake pedal weakens &
> nearly goes to the floor. But often once the brakes are pumped they
> appear to work normally. Sometimes it feels like, in the above mentioned
> situations, they feel like they will fail.
>
> I'm not sure but it appears when I'm at higher rpm's the brakes are fine
> as I will tap them when driving at higher speeds. This issue seems to be
> always present when in some type of deceleration mode, turning, or
> pulling in & out of a parking spot.
>
> Thanks for any suggestions.
>
>
>



A test for a worn Brake Master Cylinder is to hold the brake pedal as if at
a traffic light, if the pedal slowly starts to sink to the floor, the master
cylinder is failing.

You describe that you can pumpo the pedal and it comes back up, this is
another symptom of a failed/failing brake master cylinder.

Since your pedal comes back up, I think your issue is the master cylinder is
on its way out. Put your car out of the way of traffic, and (with the engine
running) hold the pedal as if you are at a traffic light waiting for it to
turn green. If the pedal sinks, you confirm that the master is going out. If
the pedal does not sink, then there is something else going on, but pumping
the pedal to bring it up points to the master. When the master fails, the
brake fluid seeps around the o-rings on the piston and moves between the
chambers instead of into the brake pipes that move the fluid to the wheel
cylinders -- whether disc or drum, does not matter (the wheel cylinders for
drum and disc are significantly different and not interchangable,but the
movement of fluid is the same.





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Old 12 Sep 2013, 05:06 pm   #4 (permalink)
ByTor
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Default Re: Issue with brakes

In article <l0su6n$q3i$1@dont-email.me>, crwlrjeff@yahoo.com says...
>
> "ByTor" <ByTor@snowdog.com> wrote in message
> news:5231a9fa$0$61504$c3e8da3$f017e9df@news.astraw eb.com...
> >
> >
> > 1996 Toyota Tercel 162k miles Front rotors rear drums
> >
> > Lately this has been happening more often, it was slight in the past for
> > several months. I checked my fluid it is full, clear & solid with no air
> > present.
> >
> > It appears that everytime on a down slope, sometimes exiting off a
> > highway ramp, or pulling into a parking spot my brake pedal weakens &
> > nearly goes to the floor. But often once the brakes are pumped they
> > appear to work normally. Sometimes it feels like, in the above mentioned
> > situations, they feel like they will fail.
> >
> > I'm not sure but it appears when I'm at higher rpm's the brakes are fine
> > as I will tap them when driving at higher speeds. This issue seems to be
> > always present when in some type of deceleration mode, turning, or
> > pulling in & out of a parking spot.
> >
> > Thanks for any suggestions.
> >
> >
> >

>
>
> A test for a worn Brake Master Cylinder is to hold the brake pedal as if at
> a traffic light, if the pedal slowly starts to sink to the floor, the master
> cylinder is failing.
>
> You describe that you can pumpo the pedal and it comes back up, this is
> another symptom of a failed/failing brake master cylinder.
>
> Since your pedal comes back up, I think your issue is the master cylinder is
> on its way out. Put your car out of the way of traffic, and (with the engine
> running) hold the pedal as if you are at a traffic light waiting for it to
> turn green. If the pedal sinks, you confirm that the master is going out. If
> the pedal does not sink, then there is something else going on, but pumping
> the pedal to bring it up points to the master. When the master fails, the
> brake fluid seeps around the o-rings on the piston and moves between the
> chambers instead of into the brake pipes that move the fluid to the wheel
> cylinders -- whether disc or drum, does not matter (the wheel cylinders for
> drum and disc are significantly different and not interchangable,but the
> movement of fluid is the same.


Last night I was in a parking spot started up the car and before,
obviously, putting it in gear, the brake pedal did go to the floor and
was weak to the curb turning onto the street and than maybe 500ft to the
corner stop sign was weak as well stopping. I than proceed right make
quick left, weak again while braking to turn.

This is the usual pattern even pulling into my driveway thats on a down
slope, when I glide into the spot to park applying the brake it goes
near to the floor.

Thanks for the help..........;0)
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Old 12 Sep 2013, 05:08 pm   #5 (permalink)
ByTor
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Default Re: Issue with brakes

In article <52322cd6$0$9756$c3e8da3$e408f015@news.astraweb.co m>,
ByTor@snowdog.com says...
>
> In article <l0su6n$q3i$1@dont-email.me>, crwlrjeff@yahoo.com says...
> >
> > "ByTor" <ByTor@snowdog.com> wrote in message
> > news:5231a9fa$0$61504$c3e8da3$f017e9df@news.astraw eb.com...
> > >
> > >
> > > 1996 Toyota Tercel 162k miles Front rotors rear drums
> > >
> > > Lately this has been happening more often, it was slight in the past for
> > > several months. I checked my fluid it is full, clear & solid with no air
> > > present.
> > >
> > > It appears that everytime on a down slope, sometimes exiting off a
> > > highway ramp, or pulling into a parking spot my brake pedal weakens &
> > > nearly goes to the floor. But often once the brakes are pumped they
> > > appear to work normally. Sometimes it feels like, in the above mentioned
> > > situations, they feel like they will fail.
> > >
> > > I'm not sure but it appears when I'm at higher rpm's the brakes are fine
> > > as I will tap them when driving at higher speeds. This issue seems to be
> > > always present when in some type of deceleration mode, turning, or
> > > pulling in & out of a parking spot.
> > >
> > > Thanks for any suggestions.
> > >
> > >
> > >

> >
> >
> > A test for a worn Brake Master Cylinder is to hold the brake pedal as if at
> > a traffic light, if the pedal slowly starts to sink to the floor, the master
> > cylinder is failing.
> >
> > You describe that you can pumpo the pedal and it comes back up, this is
> > another symptom of a failed/failing brake master cylinder.
> >
> > Since your pedal comes back up, I think your issue is the master cylinder is
> > on its way out. Put your car out of the way of traffic, and (with the engine
> > running) hold the pedal as if you are at a traffic light waiting for it to
> > turn green. If the pedal sinks, you confirm that the master is going out. If
> > the pedal does not sink, then there is something else going on, but pumping
> > the pedal to bring it up points to the master. When the master fails, the
> > brake fluid seeps around the o-rings on the piston and moves between the
> > chambers instead of into the brake pipes that move the fluid to the wheel
> > cylinders -- whether disc or drum, does not matter (the wheel cylinders for
> > drum and disc are significantly different and not interchangable,but the
> > movement of fluid is the same.

>
> Last night I was in a parking spot started up the car and before,
> obviously, putting it in gear, the brake pedal did go to the floor and
> was weak to the curb turning onto the street and than maybe 500ft to the
> corner stop sign was weak as well stopping. I than proceed right make
> quick left, weak again while braking to turn.
>
> This is the usual pattern even pulling into my driveway thats on a down
> slope, when I glide into the spot to park applying the brake it goes
> near to the floor.
>
> Thanks for the help..........;0)


Oh, may seem like a dumb question but will something like this fail
*completely* if it's indeed the MC and am I taking ahuge risk driving?
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Old 12 Sep 2013, 06:20 pm   #6 (permalink)
Jeff Strickland
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Default Re: Issue with brakes


"ByTor" <ByTor@snowdog.com> wrote in message
news:52322d67$0$9756$c3e8da3$e408f015@news.astrawe b.com...
> In article <52322cd6$0$9756$c3e8da3$e408f015@news.astraweb.co m>,
> ByTor@snowdog.com says...
>>
>> In article <l0su6n$q3i$1@dont-email.me>, crwlrjeff@yahoo.com says...
>> >
>> > "ByTor" <ByTor@snowdog.com> wrote in message
>> > news:5231a9fa$0$61504$c3e8da3$f017e9df@news.astraw eb.com...
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > 1996 Toyota Tercel 162k miles Front rotors rear drums
>> > >
>> > > Lately this has been happening more often, it was slight in the past
>> > > for
>> > > several months. I checked my fluid it is full, clear & solid with no
>> > > air
>> > > present.
>> > >
>> > > It appears that everytime on a down slope, sometimes exiting off a
>> > > highway ramp, or pulling into a parking spot my brake pedal weakens &
>> > > nearly goes to the floor. But often once the brakes are pumped they
>> > > appear to work normally. Sometimes it feels like, in the above
>> > > mentioned
>> > > situations, they feel like they will fail.
>> > >
>> > > I'm not sure but it appears when I'm at higher rpm's the brakes are
>> > > fine
>> > > as I will tap them when driving at higher speeds. This issue seems to
>> > > be
>> > > always present when in some type of deceleration mode, turning, or
>> > > pulling in & out of a parking spot.
>> > >
>> > > Thanks for any suggestions.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> >
>> >
>> > A test for a worn Brake Master Cylinder is to hold the brake pedal as
>> > if at
>> > a traffic light, if the pedal slowly starts to sink to the floor, the
>> > master
>> > cylinder is failing.
>> >
>> > You describe that you can pumpo the pedal and it comes back up, this is
>> > another symptom of a failed/failing brake master cylinder.
>> >
>> > Since your pedal comes back up, I think your issue is the master
>> > cylinder is
>> > on its way out. Put your car out of the way of traffic, and (with the
>> > engine
>> > running) hold the pedal as if you are at a traffic light waiting for it
>> > to
>> > turn green. If the pedal sinks, you confirm that the master is going
>> > out. If
>> > the pedal does not sink, then there is something else going on, but
>> > pumping
>> > the pedal to bring it up points to the master. When the master fails,
>> > the
>> > brake fluid seeps around the o-rings on the piston and moves between
>> > the
>> > chambers instead of into the brake pipes that move the fluid to the
>> > wheel
>> > cylinders -- whether disc or drum, does not matter (the wheel cylinders
>> > for
>> > drum and disc are significantly different and not interchangable,but
>> > the
>> > movement of fluid is the same.

>>
>> Last night I was in a parking spot started up the car and before,
>> obviously, putting it in gear, the brake pedal did go to the floor and
>> was weak to the curb turning onto the street and than maybe 500ft to the
>> corner stop sign was weak as well stopping. I than proceed right make
>> quick left, weak again while braking to turn.
>>
>> This is the usual pattern even pulling into my driveway thats on a down
>> slope, when I glide into the spot to park applying the brake it goes
>> near to the floor.
>>
>> Thanks for the help..........;0)

>
> Oh, may seem like a dumb question but will something like this fail
> *completely* if it's indeed the MC and am I taking ahuge risk driving?


I'm surprised that you got this far with a failing master cylinder.

I have always felt mine slowly sinking long before the pedal goes to the
floor without doing anything, or without doing vary much. My brakes have
always worked fine, but the pedal would sink as I sat at the light with my
foot on the pedal.

Me thinks you should stop driving this car until you can get it fixed. You
are well beyond any kind of, "I get this sinking feeling," and are well
into, "I mash the pedcal and it goes to the floor and the car does not
stop." You get the car to stop, but if yo are having to hit the pedal more
than once then your stopping distance is very long, which means your
following distance must be longer.

To answer your question, yes it might fail completely. And it might fail the
next time you want to stop. As annoying as this might be for you, the guy in
front will be completely unprepared as you have a chance to brace yourself.
You can do serious damage to somebody, although I already know that you know
that.







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Old 12 Sep 2013, 07:10 pm   #7 (permalink)
ByTor
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Default Re: Issue with brakes

In article <l0teo5$uoj$1@dont-email.me>, crwlrjeff@yahoo.com says...
>
> "ByTor" <ByTor@snowdog.com> wrote in message
> news:52322d67$0$9756$c3e8da3$e408f015@news.astrawe b.com...
> > In article <52322cd6$0$9756$c3e8da3$e408f015@news.astraweb.co m>,
> > ByTor@snowdog.com says...
> >>
> >> In article <l0su6n$q3i$1@dont-email.me>, crwlrjeff@yahoo.com says...
> >> >
> >> > "ByTor" <ByTor@snowdog.com> wrote in message
> >> > news:5231a9fa$0$61504$c3e8da3$f017e9df@news.astraw eb.com...
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > 1996 Toyota Tercel 162k miles Front rotors rear drums
> >> > >
> >> > > Lately this has been happening more often, it was slight in the past
> >> > > for
> >> > > several months. I checked my fluid it is full, clear & solid with no
> >> > > air
> >> > > present.
> >> > >
> >> > > It appears that everytime on a down slope, sometimes exiting off a
> >> > > highway ramp, or pulling into a parking spot my brake pedal weakens &
> >> > > nearly goes to the floor. But often once the brakes are pumped they
> >> > > appear to work normally. Sometimes it feels like, in the above
> >> > > mentioned
> >> > > situations, they feel like they will fail.
> >> > >
> >> > > I'm not sure but it appears when I'm at higher rpm's the brakes are
> >> > > fine
> >> > > as I will tap them when driving at higher speeds. This issue seems to
> >> > > be
> >> > > always present when in some type of deceleration mode, turning, or
> >> > > pulling in & out of a parking spot.
> >> > >
> >> > > Thanks for any suggestions.
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > A test for a worn Brake Master Cylinder is to hold the brake pedal as
> >> > if at
> >> > a traffic light, if the pedal slowly starts to sink to the floor, the
> >> > master
> >> > cylinder is failing.
> >> >
> >> > You describe that you can pumpo the pedal and it comes back up, this is
> >> > another symptom of a failed/failing brake master cylinder.
> >> >
> >> > Since your pedal comes back up, I think your issue is the master
> >> > cylinder is
> >> > on its way out. Put your car out of the way of traffic, and (with the
> >> > engine
> >> > running) hold the pedal as if you are at a traffic light waiting for it
> >> > to
> >> > turn green. If the pedal sinks, you confirm that the master is going
> >> > out. If
> >> > the pedal does not sink, then there is something else going on, but
> >> > pumping
> >> > the pedal to bring it up points to the master. When the master fails,
> >> > the
> >> > brake fluid seeps around the o-rings on the piston and moves between
> >> > the
> >> > chambers instead of into the brake pipes that move the fluid to the
> >> > wheel
> >> > cylinders -- whether disc or drum, does not matter (the wheel cylinders
> >> > for
> >> > drum and disc are significantly different and not interchangable,but
> >> > the
> >> > movement of fluid is the same.
> >>
> >> Last night I was in a parking spot started up the car and before,
> >> obviously, putting it in gear, the brake pedal did go to the floor and
> >> was weak to the curb turning onto the street and than maybe 500ft to the
> >> corner stop sign was weak as well stopping. I than proceed right make
> >> quick left, weak again while braking to turn.
> >>
> >> This is the usual pattern even pulling into my driveway thats on a down
> >> slope, when I glide into the spot to park applying the brake it goes
> >> near to the floor.
> >>
> >> Thanks for the help..........;0)

> >
> > Oh, may seem like a dumb question but will something like this fail
> > *completely* if it's indeed the MC and am I taking ahuge risk driving?

>
> I'm surprised that you got this far with a failing master cylinder.
>
> I have always felt mine slowly sinking long before the pedal goes to the
> floor without doing anything, or without doing vary much. My brakes have
> always worked fine, but the pedal would sink as I sat at the light with my
> foot on the pedal.
>
> Me thinks you should stop driving this car until you can get it fixed. You
> are well beyond any kind of, "I get this sinking feeling," and are well
> into, "I mash the pedcal and it goes to the floor and the car does not
> stop." You get the car to stop, but if yo are having to hit the pedal more
> than once then your stopping distance is very long, which means your
> following distance must be longer.
>
> To answer your question, yes it might fail completely. And it might fail the
> next time you want to stop. As annoying as this might be for you, the guy in
> front will be completely unprepared as you have a chance to brace yourself.
> You can do serious damage to somebody, although I already know that you know
> that.


The car stops though everytime, I mean the pedal is down more than usual
but I do see your points & they are WELL noted........;0)

But as I said it only seems to happen at the scenarios given, high speed
on the highway the pedal is tight & ready to brake with no sinking.

Thanks for your help Jeff, my mechanic will be looking at it on Tuesday.
I really do need to change this mechanic because I described this to him
several months ago when it was *slightly* doing it and he said OH all
you need is a brake adjustment. He forgets that I KNOW THIS CAR, I am
genetically *connected* to it..........LMAO.......I've had it almost
17yrs and am original owner.
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Old 13 Sep 2013, 02:17 pm   #8 (permalink)
Fat-Dumb and Happy
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Default Re: Issue with brakes

In the meantime practice using the handbrake and note how ineffective
it is... be sure to look for a target when braking, something cheap that
your insurance will cover completely. Rear ending a Telsa ... that
could be expensive.
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Old 13 Sep 2013, 05:03 pm   #9 (permalink)
ByTor
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Default Re: Issue with brakes

In article <l0vkqg$qis$1@speranza.aioe.org>, "MoMoneyBen"@EasyMoney.net
says...
>
> In the meantime practice using the handbrake and note how ineffective
> it is... be sure to look for a target when braking, something cheap that
> your insurance will cover completely. Rear ending a Telsa ... that
> could be expensive.


Actually I could use a new car, any other suggestions?.........;0)
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Old 20 Sep 2013, 04:17 am   #10 (permalink)
obob@cam.cam
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Default Re: Issue with brakes

On Fri, 13 Sep 2013 17:03:23 -0400, ByTor <ByTor@snowdog.com> wrote:

>In article <l0vkqg$qis$1@speranza.aioe.org>, "MoMoneyBen"@EasyMoney.net
>says...
>>
>> In the meantime practice using the handbrake and note how ineffective
>> it is... be sure to look for a target when braking, something cheap that
>> your insurance will cover completely. Rear ending a Telsa ... that
>> could be expensive.

>
>Actually I could use a new car, any other suggestions?.........;0)


Yaris pretty good

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