why does the 2004 Totota Avalon use high test gas

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Old 25 Oct 2014, 07:34 pm   #11 (permalink)
Jeff Strickland
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Default Re: why does the 2004 Totota Avalon use high test gas


"gamo" <gamo@telecable.es> wrote in message
news:m1vnth$g90$1@speranza.aioe.org...
> El 19/10/14 a las 06:40, nm5k@wt.net escribió:
>> On Saturday, October 18, 2014 3:18:00 PM UTC-5, Dutch wrote:
>>> My 2004 Toyota Avalon owners manual says that I MUST use a high grade of
>>> gas.
>>>
>>> Why can it not use a lower grade of gas?

>>
>> Evidently the compression is higher than the regular gas engines.
>> If the octane is too low, you will have pinging if the anti knock
>> sensors can't handle it. It will sound like a knocking sound when
>> you get on it. Not good for the engine.
>>

>
> When you use high octanes in gas, you pay more, but people
> say than you could run more kilometers for the same quantity
> (in gallons) of gas. Could that be true?
>
> --
> http://www.telecable.es/personales/gamo/



Yes, it absolutely can be true. It might not be true in all cases, but it's
worth the try in your own car to see how the numbers shake out. As the price
of a gallon of gas goes up, the spread actually improves the calculation.

If regular costs 3.50 and premium is .20 more, 3.70 but gives an added 3
mpg, then assuming regular gives 20 mpg, then it costs .175 per mile, but
premium at 23 mpg costs .161 per mile, or 0.014 less per mile. If regular is
3.80 and premium is 4.00, then regular costs 0.190 per mile while premium is
0.174, this is 0.016 lower cost per mile.

Not only can premium cost less per mile, it costs less on an upward sliding
scale as the price of gas goes up. You have to do the math for your car, but
my example of a 3 mpg improvement is not out of line, so the savings I
illustrate are real. Your savings will depend on what mileage you get with
regular and premium.



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Old 25 Oct 2014, 07:34 pm   #12 (permalink)
nm5k@wt.net
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Default Re: why does the 2004 Totota Avalon use high test gas

On Saturday, October 25, 2014 7:22:55 PM UTC-5, Jeff Strickland wrote:
> <nm5k@wt.net> wrote in message
> news:e67f0e1a-797c-462d-95f0-973801bd7fe6@googlegroups.com...
> > On Sunday, October 19, 2014 11:29:43 AM UTC-5, badgolferman wrote:
> >> Dutch wrote:
> >>
> >> >My 2004 Toyota Avalon owners manual says that I MUST use a high grade
> >> >of gas. Why can it not use a lower grade of gas?
> >>
> >> You are reading your manual incorrectly. I have a 2004 Toyota Avalon
> >> XLE and it says Regular octane 87 is required and Premium octane 91 is
> >> recommended for higher performance. I've been using Regular fuel ever
> >> since I've owned it.

> >
> > I haven't checked for that in my manual, but that's how my car
> > runs. It definitely seems to take advantage of the higher octane
> > gas by adjusting the timing. "variable valve timing".
> > I can tell the difference between regular and premium. Not huge mind
> > you, but there is a difference. It shows the most on hilly terrain and
> > such with a loaded car.
> > And seems a little more perky around town, but not hugely so.
> > It also idles smoother with premium than regular. I wouldn't expect a
> > difference there, but it does idle smoother on the good gas. I can
> > switch grades back and forth and see the difference. It's OK on regular,
> > but purrs like a sewing machine with premium. There is less vibration.
> > But due to the knock sensors and such, and variable valve timing, it does
> > not ping or knock on any grade of gas.
> >
> >
> >
> >

>
>
> What really happens is the knock sensors detect knock and the computer
> retards the ignition timing, not the valve timing.


If indeed it did detect knock that would happen, but my car does
have variable valve timing, and it adjusts constantly for the type
of driving, and evidently the grade of fuel also, being as I see a
difference. I think about the same as "Vtec" in Honda talk..

>
> Here's a challenge if you want to take the time to try it. My test tend to
> show that if the car wants premium, but you feed it regular, then it will
> retard the timing to avoid damage to the engine.


Of course.


>
> My car, a '94 BMW, wants to be fed the mid-grade fuel


Mine actually calls for 89 octane if I remember right. I'd
have to check the manual. But, basically regular, except that
real world regular tends to be rated 87 octane and 2 less than
what Toyota is calling for.

They don't call for premium for mine. Mine also seems to see
most of the benefit by going to mid grade, instead of full blown
premium. Which sort of makes sense being as Toyota is recommending
89 octane, which is pretty close to the mid grade octane.
I forgot what mid grade is usually rated at these days.. But it's
at least two over regular.



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Old 25 Oct 2014, 07:37 pm   #13 (permalink)
Jeff Strickland
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Default Re: why does the 2004 Totota Avalon use high test gas


<nm5k@wt.net> wrote in message
news:031a54e0-bc31-4e28-b1d8-ada155741e6c@googlegroups.com...
> On Saturday, October 25, 2014 7:22:55 PM UTC-5, Jeff Strickland wrote:
>> <nm5k@wt.net> wrote in message
>> news:e67f0e1a-797c-462d-95f0-973801bd7fe6@googlegroups.com...
>> > On Sunday, October 19, 2014 11:29:43 AM UTC-5, badgolferman wrote:
>> >> Dutch wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >My 2004 Toyota Avalon owners manual says that I MUST use a high grade
>> >> >of gas. Why can it not use a lower grade of gas?
>> >>
>> >> You are reading your manual incorrectly. I have a 2004 Toyota Avalon
>> >> XLE and it says Regular octane 87 is required and Premium octane 91 is
>> >> recommended for higher performance. I've been using Regular fuel ever
>> >> since I've owned it.
>> >
>> > I haven't checked for that in my manual, but that's how my car
>> > runs. It definitely seems to take advantage of the higher octane
>> > gas by adjusting the timing. "variable valve timing".
>> > I can tell the difference between regular and premium. Not huge mind
>> > you, but there is a difference. It shows the most on hilly terrain and
>> > such with a loaded car.
>> > And seems a little more perky around town, but not hugely so.
>> > It also idles smoother with premium than regular. I wouldn't expect a
>> > difference there, but it does idle smoother on the good gas. I can
>> > switch grades back and forth and see the difference. It's OK on
>> > regular,
>> > but purrs like a sewing machine with premium. There is less vibration.
>> > But due to the knock sensors and such, and variable valve timing, it
>> > does
>> > not ping or knock on any grade of gas.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >

>>
>>
>> What really happens is the knock sensors detect knock and the computer
>> retards the ignition timing, not the valve timing.

>
> If indeed it did detect knock that would happen, but my car does
> have variable valve timing, and it adjusts constantly for the type
> of driving, and evidently the grade of fuel also, being as I see a
> difference. I think about the same as "Vtec" in Honda talk..
>


Knock sensors detect knock long before you hear it. You will never know that
the knock sensor has kicked in, until it fails. Ignition timing and valve
timing are different things. Variable Valve timing is completely indepent of
ignition timing that happens because the engine has a knock sensor.


>>
>> Here's a challenge if you want to take the time to try it. My test tend
>> to
>> show that if the car wants premium, but you feed it regular, then it will
>> retard the timing to avoid damage to the engine.

>
> Of course.
>
>


That was the set up, you snipped the meat and potatoes.


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Old 25 Oct 2014, 07:44 pm   #14 (permalink)
nm5k@wt.net
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Default Re: why does the 2004 Totota Avalon use high test gas

On Saturday, October 25, 2014 7:37:35 PM UTC-5, Jeff Strickland wrote:

> > If indeed it did detect knock that would happen, but my car does
> > have variable valve timing, and it adjusts constantly for the type
> > of driving, and evidently the grade of fuel also, being as I see a
> > difference. I think about the same as "Vtec" in Honda talk..
> >

>
> Knock sensors detect knock long before you hear it. You will never know that
> the knock sensor has kicked in, until it fails. Ignition timing and valve
> timing are different things. Variable Valve timing is completely indepent of
> ignition timing that happens because the engine has a knock sensor.


Sure, but I still think it's adjusting the valve timing differently
for premium, vs regular. How else would I explain the difference in
the idle? It's not under load, so knocking wouldn't be an issue.
The engine feels like the valve timing changes a bit with higher
octane.

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Old 25 Oct 2014, 07:46 pm   #15 (permalink)
nm5k@wt.net
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Default Re: why does the 2004 Totota Avalon use high test gas

On Saturday, October 25, 2014 7:37:35 PM UTC-5, Jeff Strickland wrote:
> <nm5k@wt.net> wrote in message


> That was the set up, you snipped the meat and potatoes.


That was a test for a car that calls for premium. Mine does
not call for premium. It just calls for 89 octane, which is a
good bit lower than premium.



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Old 26 Oct 2014, 07:09 am   #16 (permalink)
Elmo P. Shagnasty
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Default Re: why does the 2004 Totota Avalon use high test gas

In article <e67f0e1a-797c-462d-95f0-973801bd7fe6@googlegroups.com>,
nm5k@wt.net wrote:

> I haven't checked for that in my manual, but that's how my car
> runs. It definitely seems to take advantage of the higher octane
> gas by adjusting the timing. "variable valve timing".
> I can tell the difference between regular and premium. Not huge mind
> you, but there is a difference. It shows the most on hilly terrain and
> such with a loaded car.
> And seems a little more perky around town, but not hugely so.
> It also idles smoother with premium than regular. I wouldn't expect a
> difference there, but it does idle smoother on the good gas.


I will be happy to conduct a blind experiment with you, and show you how
you're wrong.

But you proved it yourself when you defined the higher octane gas as
"the good gas". It's not "the good gas" at all. It's not better than a
lower octane gas. It simply has a higher octane rating, that's all.

But you think it is "the good gas," so you've fooled yourself into
thinking "the car runs better" and "idles smoother". To say anything
else would deny your stand that it's "the good gas," so of course you
say what supports your thought that it's "the good gas".

Shell is the good gas compared to grocery store gas (or any other
non-Top Tier gas), but octane rating has absolutely nothing to do with
that.
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Old 26 Oct 2014, 07:11 am   #17 (permalink)
Elmo P. Shagnasty
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Default Re: why does the 2004 Totota Avalon use high test gas

In article <031a54e0-bc31-4e28-b1d8-ada155741e6c@googlegroups.com>,
nm5k@wt.net wrote:

> > What really happens is the knock sensors detect knock and the computer
> > retards the ignition timing, not the valve timing.

>
> If indeed it did detect knock that would happen, but my car does
> have variable valve timing, and it adjusts constantly for the type
> of driving, and evidently the grade of fuel also, being as I see a
> difference.


No, it doesn't.

And "being as you see a difference" is meaningless, because you're
seeing ghosts that result from your putting in gas that you erroneously
think is "better".
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Old 26 Oct 2014, 07:13 am   #18 (permalink)
Elmo P. Shagnasty
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Default Re: why does the 2004 Totota Avalon use high test gas

In article <042fdf02-d1f3-4971-bcbe-213fe08d6866@googlegroups.com>,
nm5k@wt.net wrote:

> > Knock sensors detect knock long before you hear it. You will never know
> > that
> > the knock sensor has kicked in, until it fails. Ignition timing and valve
> > timing are different things. Variable Valve timing is completely indepent
> > of
> > ignition timing that happens because the engine has a knock sensor.

>
> Sure, but I still think it's adjusting the valve timing differently
> for premium, vs regular.


You think that...why? Simply because you think that?

You know, there's this big thing called the internet. Without leaving
your easy chair you can learn all about these things.

But you don't, because that would disturb your little world.

It's quite scary that people like you, who don't care about facts and
care only about what you feel, can vote and serve jury duty.
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Old 26 Oct 2014, 12:33 pm   #19 (permalink)
Jeff Strickland
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Default Re: why does the 2004 Totota Avalon use high test gas


<nm5k@wt.net> wrote in message
news:042fdf02-d1f3-4971-bcbe-213fe08d6866@googlegroups.com...
> On Saturday, October 25, 2014 7:37:35 PM UTC-5, Jeff Strickland wrote:
>
>> > If indeed it did detect knock that would happen, but my car does
>> > have variable valve timing, and it adjusts constantly for the type
>> > of driving, and evidently the grade of fuel also, being as I see a
>> > difference. I think about the same as "Vtec" in Honda talk..
>> >

>>
>> Knock sensors detect knock long before you hear it. You will never know
>> that
>> the knock sensor has kicked in, until it fails. Ignition timing and valve
>> timing are different things. Variable Valve timing is completely indepent
>> of
>> ignition timing that happens because the engine has a knock sensor.

>
> Sure, but I still think it's adjusting the valve timing differently
> for premium, vs regular. How else would I explain the difference in
> the idle? It's not under load, so knocking wouldn't be an issue.
> The engine feels like the valve timing changes a bit with higher
> octane.
>


Knock sensors set the ignition timing. Valve timing happens due to variables
such as load and throttle position. At idle, you would not feel any
difference in anything. as a result of premium vs. regular gasoline.
Anything you think you feel is only in your head.

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Old 26 Oct 2014, 12:42 pm   #20 (permalink)
Jeff Strickland
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Default Re: why does the 2004 Totota Avalon use high test gas


<nm5k@wt.net> wrote in message
news:c2ce4148-4b10-49b7-bb3e-e6bb1fccb697@googlegroups.com...
> On Saturday, October 25, 2014 7:37:35 PM UTC-5, Jeff Strickland wrote:
>> <nm5k@wt.net> wrote in message

>
>> That was the set up, you snipped the meat and potatoes.

>
> That was a test for a car that calls for premium. Mine does
> not call for premium. It just calls for 89 octane, which is a
> good bit lower than premium.
>
>
>



It's not a "good bit" lower, it is slightly lower. The same calculations
hold true, but the margin would be different. Assuming $0.10 difference in
the price per grade, when regular costs $3.50, mid-grade would be $3.60 and
premium would be $3.70.

You still calculate the cost per mile the same way, if regular gives you 20
and mid-grade gives you 22, then 3.60 / 22 = 0.163, which is 0.012 per mile
cheaper to use mid-grade than to use regular.

Just because the cost of filling the tank is less does not mean it costs
less to operate the car. YOU HAVE TO DO THE MATH to know what is cheaper.
There is more to the cost of operation than how much it costs to buy gas,
you have to know how much it costs to USE gas.

If regular costs 3.50 and gives you 20 mpg, and if mid-grade costs 3.60,
then all you need in mpg is 20.6 to break even, if you get 21 or 22, then
you are ahead of the game, your cost per mile is lower on the more expensive
fuel. Period.


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