why does the 2004 Totota Avalon use high test gas

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Old 26 Oct 2014, 05:27 pm   #21 (permalink)
nm5k@wt.net
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Default Re: why does the 2004 Totota Avalon use high test gas

On Sunday, October 26, 2014 7:09:52 AM UTC-5, Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:
> In article <e67f0e1a-797c-462d-95f0-973801bd7fe6@googlegroups.com>,
> nm5k@wt.net wrote:
>
> > I haven't checked for that in my manual, but that's how my car
> > runs. It definitely seems to take advantage of the higher octane
> > gas by adjusting the timing. "variable valve timing".
> > I can tell the difference between regular and premium. Not huge mind
> > you, but there is a difference. It shows the most on hilly terrain and
> > such with a loaded car.
> > And seems a little more perky around town, but not hugely so.
> > It also idles smoother with premium than regular. I wouldn't expect a
> > difference there, but it does idle smoother on the good gas.

>
> I will be happy to conduct a blind experiment with you, and show you how
> you're wrong.


How am I wrong? What is wrong?
And how would you grade the experiment when you are not in the area?
I am NOT wrong. I know my car very well. I know my car much better
than you know my car, that's for damn sure.

>
> But you proved it yourself when you defined the higher octane gas as
> "the good gas". It's not "the good gas" at all. It's not better than a
> lower octane gas. It simply has a higher octane rating, that's all.


That was just a figure of speech and does not mean anything technical.
I'm well aware of all the various technical aspects of gasoline.


> Shell is the good gas compared to grocery store gas (or any other
> non-Top Tier gas), but octane rating has absolutely nothing to do with
> that.


Well now.. No shit...


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Old 26 Oct 2014, 05:34 pm   #22 (permalink)
nm5k@wt.net
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Default Re: why does the 2004 Totota Avalon use high test gas

On Sunday, October 26, 2014 12:33:57 PM UTC-5, Jeff Strickland wrote:
> <nm5k@wt.net> wrote in message
> news:042fdf02-d1f3-4971-bcbe-213fe08d6866@googlegroups.com...
> > On Saturday, October 25, 2014 7:37:35 PM UTC-5, Jeff Strickland wrote:
> >
> >> > If indeed it did detect knock that would happen, but my car does
> >> > have variable valve timing, and it adjusts constantly for the type
> >> > of driving, and evidently the grade of fuel also, being as I see a
> >> > difference. I think about the same as "Vtec" in Honda talk..
> >> >
> >>
> >> Knock sensors detect knock long before you hear it. You will never know
> >> that
> >> the knock sensor has kicked in, until it fails. Ignition timing and valve
> >> timing are different things. Variable Valve timing is completely indepent
> >> of
> >> ignition timing that happens because the engine has a knock sensor.

> >
> > Sure, but I still think it's adjusting the valve timing differently
> > for premium, vs regular. How else would I explain the difference in
> > the idle? It's not under load, so knocking wouldn't be an issue.
> > The engine feels like the valve timing changes a bit with higher
> > octane.
> >

>
> Knock sensors set the ignition timing. Valve timing happens due to variables
> such as load and throttle position. At idle, you would not feel any
> difference in anything. as a result of premium vs. regular gasoline.
> Anything you think you feel is only in your head.


You are out of your mind if you think I can't detect a difference
in the idle between regular and premium.
I've already said that the idle would be one area that I would not
expect to notice a difference when switching grades of gas.

I agree, it's a tad peculiar, being as the engine is not under load.
But there IS a difference in the idle when switching between regular
and premium. Whether you think I'm crazy does not matter to me.
I don't care. I know my car, and I can tell a difference.
I'm not going to argue about this, as I'll never be able to convince
anyone that can't be here to see and hear it for themselves.


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Old 26 Oct 2014, 05:39 pm   #23 (permalink)
Elmo P. Shagnasty
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Default Re: why does the 2004 Totota Avalon use high test gas

In article <m2jbqu$hds$1@dont-email.me>,
"Jeff Strickland" <crwlrjeff@yahoo.com> wrote:

> YOU HAVE TO DO THE MATH to know what is cheaper


<entire internet>

WAAA, MATH IS HARD! Octane number is bigger, therefore must be better,
therefore I declare it so. I put head in sand now.

</entire internet>
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Old 26 Oct 2014, 05:40 pm   #24 (permalink)
Elmo P. Shagnasty
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Default Re: why does the 2004 Totota Avalon use high test gas

In article <m2jb9t$fgi$1@dont-email.me>,
"Jeff Strickland" <crwlrjeff@yahoo.com> wrote:

> > Sure, but I still think it's adjusting the valve timing differently
> > for premium, vs regular. How else would I explain the difference in
> > the idle? It's not under load, so knocking wouldn't be an issue.
> > The engine feels like the valve timing changes a bit with higher
> > octane.
> >

>
> Knock sensors set the ignition timing. Valve timing happens due to variables
> such as load and throttle position. At idle, you would not feel any
> difference in anything. as a result of premium vs. regular gasoline.
> Anything you think you feel is only in your head.


+infinity.
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Old 26 Oct 2014, 05:40 pm   #25 (permalink)
nm5k@wt.net
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Default Re: why does the 2004 Totota Avalon use high test gas

On Sunday, October 26, 2014 12:43:02 PM UTC-5, Jeff Strickland wrote:
> <nm5k@wt.net> wrote in message
> news:c2ce4148-4b10-49b7-bb3e-e6bb1fccb697@googlegroups.com...
> > On Saturday, October 25, 2014 7:37:35 PM UTC-5, Jeff Strickland wrote:
> >> <nm5k@wt.net> wrote in message

> >
> >> That was the set up, you snipped the meat and potatoes.

> >
> > That was a test for a car that calls for premium. Mine does
> > not call for premium. It just calls for 89 octane, which is a
> > good bit lower than premium.
> >
> >
> >

>
>
> It's not a "good bit" lower, it is slightly lower. The same calculations
> hold true, but the margin would be different. Assuming $0.10 difference in
> the price per grade, when regular costs $3.50, mid-grade would be $3.60 and
> premium would be $3.70.


Whatever.. What does the price have to do with anything?
I'm not arguing which grade might give the most bang for the buck.
I've never tested that, and don't really care too much as the difference
in bang for buck would be quite small.

>
> You still calculate the cost per mile the same way, if regular gives you 20
> and mid-grade gives you 22, then 3.60 / 22 = 0.163, which is 0.012 per mile
> cheaper to use mid-grade than to use regular.
>
> Just because the cost of filling the tank is less does not mean it costs
> less to operate the car. YOU HAVE TO DO THE MATH to know what is cheaper.
> There is more to the cost of operation than how much it costs to buy gas,
> you have to know how much it costs to USE gas.
>
> If regular costs 3.50 and gives you 20 mpg, and if mid-grade costs 3.60,
> then all you need in mpg is 20.6 to break even, if you get 21 or 22, then
> you are ahead of the game, your cost per mile is lower on the more expensive
> fuel. Period.


Who cares? I'm not interested in which gives the most miles per gallon.
This has nothing to do with my claims of the engine running slightly
smoother on premium, which you people seem to think is impossible.
Go hump someones else's leg over this crap. I don't really care, being
as I'm not claiming any particular grade gives the most mpg which seems
to be what you are worried about.







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Old 26 Oct 2014, 05:40 pm   #26 (permalink)
Elmo P. Shagnasty
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Default Re: why does the 2004 Totota Avalon use high test gas

In article <74b509f4-7aa8-4d2e-9363-a62e948614ce@googlegroups.com>,
nm5k@wt.net wrote:

> > Knock sensors set the ignition timing. Valve timing happens due to
> > variables
> > such as load and throttle position. At idle, you would not feel any
> > difference in anything. as a result of premium vs. regular gasoline.
> > Anything you think you feel is only in your head.

>
> You are out of your mind if you think I can't detect a difference
> in the idle between regular and premium.


no, he's not.
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Old 26 Oct 2014, 05:42 pm   #27 (permalink)
nm5k@wt.net
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Default Re: why does the 2004 Totota Avalon use high test gas

On Sunday, October 26, 2014 4:40:21 PM UTC-5, Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:
> In article <74b509f4-7aa8-4d2e-9363-a62e948614ce@googlegroups.com>,
> nm5k@wt.net wrote:
>
> > > Knock sensors set the ignition timing. Valve timing happens due to
> > > variables
> > > such as load and throttle position. At idle, you would not feel any
> > > difference in anything. as a result of premium vs. regular gasoline.
> > > Anything you think you feel is only in your head.

> >
> > You are out of your mind if you think I can't detect a difference
> > in the idle between regular and premium.

>
> no, he's not.


Whatever.. I don't care if you two jackasses believe me or not.
I know my car. I've owned it since 2007, and have taken many trips
in it. It DOES idle slightly smoother on premium than regular.
There is absolutely no doubt.


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Old 26 Oct 2014, 05:44 pm   #28 (permalink)
Elmo P. Shagnasty
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Default Re: why does the 2004 Totota Avalon use high test gas

In article <00284147-3ac9-445a-a1ed-9a3597466f9f@googlegroups.com>,
nm5k@wt.net wrote:

> > I will be happy to conduct a blind experiment with you, and show you how
> > you're wrong.

>
> How am I wrong? What is wrong?


Your car does not "feel smoother" with "the good gas". It's not "good
gas".

And higher octane does not cause valve timing to change.


> And how would you grade the experiment when you are not in the area?


I will be happy to conduct a blind experiment with you. I will take
your car and put in the brand of gas that you specify but an octane
rating that I specify. We will do this cycle for 10 tanks, using the
same brand but mixing up the octane levels. You will record your
"feelings" and what gas you THINK is in the car for any given tank.

What do you think will happen? I *know* what will happen.


> > But you proved it yourself when you defined the higher octane gas as
> > "the good gas". It's not "the good gas" at all. It's not better than a
> > lower octane gas. It simply has a higher octane rating, that's all.

>
> That was just a figure of speech and does not mean anything technical.


You have already convinced yourself that "higher octane" means "good
gas," and your mind is responding to that.
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Old 26 Oct 2014, 05:45 pm   #29 (permalink)
nm5k@wt.net
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Default Re: why does the 2004 Totota Avalon use high test gas

On Sunday, October 26, 2014 4:39:33 PM UTC-5, Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:
> In article <m2jbqu$hds$1@dont-email.me>,
> "Jeff Strickland" <crwlrjeff@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > YOU HAVE TO DO THE MATH to know what is cheaper

>
> <entire internet>
>
> WAAA, MATH IS HARD! Octane number is bigger, therefore must be better,
> therefore I declare it so. I put head in sand now.
>
> </entire internet>


What are you babbling about now? Math is not hard.
But I've never claimed any particular grade gave more bang for a buck
than another. I DON'T CARE about that aspect. It's NOT what I'm talking
about. I'm talking purely about the way the engine runs.
So go hump someone else's leg. I'm not some dumbass that just fell
off a turnip truck.
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Old 26 Oct 2014, 05:47 pm   #30 (permalink)
nm5k@wt.net
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Default Re: why does the 2004 Totota Avalon use high test gas

On Sunday, October 26, 2014 4:44:38 PM UTC-5, Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:
> In article <00284147-3ac9-445a-a1ed-9a3597466f9f@googlegroups.com>,
> nm5k@wt.net wrote:
>
> > > I will be happy to conduct a blind experiment with you, and show you how
> > > you're wrong.

> >
> > How am I wrong? What is wrong?

>
> Your car does not "feel smoother" with "the good gas". It's not "good
> gas".
>
> And higher octane does not cause valve timing to change.
>
>
> > And how would you grade the experiment when you are not in the area?

>
> I will be happy to conduct a blind experiment with you. I will take
> your car and put in the brand of gas that you specify but an octane
> rating that I specify. We will do this cycle for 10 tanks, using the
> same brand but mixing up the octane levels. You will record your
> "feelings" and what gas you THINK is in the car for any given tank.
>
> What do you think will happen? I *know* what will happen.
>
>
> > > But you proved it yourself when you defined the higher octane gas as
> > > "the good gas". It's not "the good gas" at all. It's not better than a
> > > lower octane gas. It simply has a higher octane rating, that's all.

> >
> > That was just a figure of speech and does not mean anything technical.

>
> You have already convinced yourself that "higher octane" means "good
> gas," and your mind is responding to that.


I'm done with this crap.. You obviously have your head stuck up so
your ass it's blocked the flow of oxygen.
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