Whats the best way to find out dealer's invoice amount?

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Old 28 May 2010, 08:58 am   #1 (permalink)
Keith T.
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Default Whats the best way to find out dealer's invoice amount?


Any websites I can go to, without a paid subscription that will tell
me invoice amount?
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Old 28 May 2010, 09:16 am   #2 (permalink)
Blash
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Default Re: Whats the best way to find out dealer's invoice amount?

Keith T. wrote on 5/28/10 8:58 AM:

>
> Any websites I can go to, without a paid subscription that will tell
> me invoice amount?


The invoice amount usually does not reflect the dealers true
cost......there are "holdbacks" by the manufacturer to cover misc. costs by
the dealer(local advertising, etc.) and other "incentives" to help him move
slow-selling models, etc.........
When a dealer says he will sell you a car at "invoice", he still has a
profit built in........

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Old 28 May 2010, 10:01 am   #3 (permalink)
Bill Yanaire, ESQ
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Default Re: Whats the best way to find out dealer's invoice amount?



"Blash" <blash1@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:C8253A58.E38E3%blash1@comcast.net...
> Keith T. wrote on 5/28/10 8:58 AM:
>
>>
>> Any websites I can go to, without a paid subscription that will tell
>> me invoice amount?

>
> The invoice amount usually does not reflect the dealers true
> cost......there are "holdbacks" by the manufacturer to cover misc. costs
> by
> the dealer(local advertising, etc.) and other "incentives" to help him
> move
> slow-selling models, etc.........
> When a dealer says he will sell you a car at "invoice", he still has a
> profit built in........
>


Hey shit-for-brains,

He asked a simple question. He wanted to know the dealer's invoice amount.
He didn't ask about the true cost of the vehicle. No wonder you can't
purchase a vehicle on your own. You are an idiot.



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Old 28 May 2010, 10:05 am   #4 (permalink)
David Z
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Default Re: Whats the best way to find out dealer's invoice amount?

"Blash" <blash1@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:C8253A58.E38E3%blash1@comcast.net...
> Keith T. wrote on 5/28/10 8:58 AM:
>
>>
>> Any websites I can go to, without a paid subscription that will tell
>> me invoice amount?

>
> The invoice amount usually does not reflect the dealers true
> cost......there are "holdbacks" by the manufacturer to cover misc. costs
> by
> the dealer(local advertising, etc.) and other "incentives" to help him
> move
> slow-selling models, etc.........
> When a dealer says he will sell you a car at "invoice", he still has a
> profit built in........


That's correct. Holdback usually runs about 2% to 3% of invoice and is
intended to cover dealer overhead. The idea is that if a dealer sells a car
for invoice, they cover their costs and just about break even.

Dealer invoice prices can be found at:

Kelley's Blue Book
http://www.kbb.com/

Edmunds
http://www.edmunds.com/

Keep in mind that:

-- some cars sell for invoice and others for well above invoice (or below
invoice) depending upon how hot the sales are.

-- the best deals can be often be gotten at the end of the month because
dealers count sales by month.

-- dealers often make more money on the car you traded in, than the one they
sold you. You can usually get quite a bit more for your car if you are able
to sell it on your own.

The best place the I've found to look for current pricing on cars are the
discussion boards on Edmunds website. People discuss their buying
experiences, what they paid and where.


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Old 28 May 2010, 06:12 pm   #5 (permalink)
Keith T.
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Default Re: Whats the best way to find out dealer's invoice amount?

I probably should have been more careful with terminology, when I said
invoice I really should have said "I'd like all available data to know
my exact position of negotiating leverage", but I think everyone who
replied understood what I'm looking for, so thanks for all the
feedback. I've seen a number of websites (Edmunds, Yahoo auto, etc)
that say they have this info, but I wasn't sure if some of them are
known to be more reputable or accurate than others. I would hate to
spend half an hour reading everything a website had to offered then
find out later it's info is biased through sponsorship from automakers
or something similar.

But, you guys got it. Ultimately I care about dealers true cost.

Hijacking my own topic a bit, but along the same vein, how do you guys
prefer to buy a car? Do you walk into the dealership impromptu after
doing your research?

My last car I walked into the dealership after months of research for
a test-drive, intending to only drive but also get a feel for what
kind of deal I could scurry. I ended up buying and came out very
well, but there were two reasons for that... the salesman was a nice,
newbie-at-sales-type who had spent most of his career in IT and gotten
laid off in the dot-bomb... he was clearly new to sales and wasn't
skilled yet enough to really haggle so he sicked the dealship manager
on me... manager was a slick dude in the sales sense, but we had a
personality conflict, and while in terms of the sale itself I made out
like a bandit, he made me feel like a real asshole for being so
inflexible in my color/options choices and for leaving him with so
little profit, effectively taking advantage of a down time for car
sales The whole process took a lot of time and haggling, which I
hate doing, and the manager giving me the evil eye and tone of voice
made most of the experience unpleasant.

The car before that, I bought my car through a independent auto buying
agent who I came across advertising his services online, where I only
paid him his comission if I bought the car with the VIN he identified.
He was just a guy working from home who was willing to go straight to
the fleet manager and "talk the talk" on my behalf. This strategy
worked fine, he got me an outstanding price and I think I paid him
$125 as a finders fee (I saved that many times over), both in final
car price and my time. Now, that was in the early days of the
internet, even before the web was popularized. Now, I have no trouble
finding websites that advertise skilled buyers' agents that go
directly to fleet and relieve you from the negotiating and interaction
with sales guys or guidos as they may turn out to be. But I don't
know if they are all the same or how to identify a good one since its
been about 15 years since I've worked with a car buying agent.

So... how do you guys buy your cars? I thought about just starting by
sending them my "final offer" through the contact forms they have on
dealer websites, and just sitting back to see if they bite. I'm in no
rush to buy.

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Old 28 May 2010, 06:52 pm   #6 (permalink)
David Z
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Default Re: Whats the best way to find out dealer's invoice amount?

"Keith T." <kt277x@gmail.com> wrote in message
newsue006df5qemllnfcv825dt7eshaobu75q@4ax.com...
>I probably should have been more careful with terminology, when I said
> invoice I really should have said "I'd like all available data to know
> my exact position of negotiating leverage", but I think everyone who
> replied understood what I'm looking for, so thanks for all the
> feedback. I've seen a number of websites (Edmunds, Yahoo auto, etc)
> that say they have this info, but I wasn't sure if some of them are
> known to be more reputable or accurate than others. I would hate to
> spend half an hour reading everything a website had to offered then
> find out later it's info is biased through sponsorship from automakers
> or something similar.
>
> But, you guys got it. Ultimately I care about dealers true cost.
>
> Hijacking my own topic a bit, but along the same vein, how do you guys
> prefer to buy a car? Do you walk into the dealership impromptu after
> doing your research?
>
> My last car I walked into the dealership after months of research for
> a test-drive, intending to only drive but also get a feel for what
> kind of deal I could scurry. I ended up buying and came out very
> well, but there were two reasons for that... the salesman was a nice,
> newbie-at-sales-type who had spent most of his career in IT and gotten
> laid off in the dot-bomb... he was clearly new to sales and wasn't
> skilled yet enough to really haggle so he sicked the dealship manager
> on me... manager was a slick dude in the sales sense, but we had a
> personality conflict, and while in terms of the sale itself I made out
> like a bandit, he made me feel like a real asshole for being so
> inflexible in my color/options choices and for leaving him with so
> little profit, effectively taking advantage of a down time for car
> sales The whole process took a lot of time and haggling, which I
> hate doing, and the manager giving me the evil eye and tone of voice
> made most of the experience unpleasant.
>
> The car before that, I bought my car through a independent auto buying
> agent who I came across advertising his services online, where I only
> paid him his comission if I bought the car with the VIN he identified.
> He was just a guy working from home who was willing to go straight to
> the fleet manager and "talk the talk" on my behalf. This strategy
> worked fine, he got me an outstanding price and I think I paid him
> $125 as a finders fee (I saved that many times over), both in final
> car price and my time. Now, that was in the early days of the
> internet, even before the web was popularized. Now, I have no trouble
> finding websites that advertise skilled buyers' agents that go
> directly to fleet and relieve you from the negotiating and interaction
> with sales guys or guidos as they may turn out to be. But I don't
> know if they are all the same or how to identify a good one since its
> been about 15 years since I've worked with a car buying agent.
>
> So... how do you guys buy your cars? I thought about just starting by
> sending them my "final offer" through the contact forms they have on
> dealer websites, and just sitting back to see if they bite. I'm in no
> rush to buy.


The first thing to do is to decide what model, color and options you want.
Do your research, test drive, etc. If you test drive, tell them up front
you're not going to buy today. If they want to make you an offer, that's
fine. Just don't sign anything or pay them anything on that day. Expect
one or more follow up calls.

Then look up the invoice price and find out what others have bought the car
for using the Edmunds discussion boards and any other sources you can find.
Decide how much you want to pay. When you're ready to buy, call a few
dealers and make them an offer. Generally, if I haven't approached a
dealer, I'll call and ask for the sales manager. My observation is that in
order to get a good deal, you'll need to get the sales manager's approval.
And in order to get a great deal, you'll need the owner's approval. So why
start at the bottom?

A lot of people have success using the Internet. Email them an offer and
see what happens. I suspect you will at least get a call.

Make sure you first negotiate the price without the trade in. Keep this as
2 separate transactions. As I said earlier, the dealers make a lot of money
on trades and know how to confuse you with the 2 transactions. If you can
sell it on your own, you'll probably save a lot of money.

One of the advantages of trading in is that you only pay sales tax on the
difference in cost, rather than the full price of the car. That can be
thousands of dollars.

Here's how you can sell your old car on your own and still save those
dollars. Set it up so that the guy who buys your car picks it up at the
dealer on the day you pick up your new car. Arrange the deal so that it's a
trade in of the old car. That way you only pay sales tax on the difference
between the new car price and what you sold the old car for.


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Old 28 May 2010, 07:04 pm   #7 (permalink)
David Z
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Default Re: Whats the best way to find out dealer's invoice amount?

"Keith T." <kt277x@gmail.com> wrote in message
newsue006df5qemllnfcv825dt7eshaobu75q@4ax.com...
>I probably should have been more careful with terminology, when I said
> invoice I really should have said "I'd like all available data to know
> my exact position of negotiating leverage", but I think everyone who
> replied understood what I'm looking for, so thanks for all the
> feedback. I've seen a number of websites (Edmunds, Yahoo auto, etc)
> that say they have this info, but I wasn't sure if some of them are
> known to be more reputable or accurate than others. I would hate to
> spend half an hour reading everything a website had to offered then
> find out later it's info is biased through sponsorship from automakers
> or something similar.
>
> But, you guys got it. Ultimately I care about dealers true cost.
>
> Hijacking my own topic a bit, but along the same vein, how do you guys
> prefer to buy a car? Do you walk into the dealership impromptu after
> doing your research?
>
> My last car I walked into the dealership after months of research for
> a test-drive, intending to only drive but also get a feel for what
> kind of deal I could scurry. I ended up buying and came out very
> well, but there were two reasons for that... the salesman was a nice,
> newbie-at-sales-type who had spent most of his career in IT and gotten
> laid off in the dot-bomb... he was clearly new to sales and wasn't
> skilled yet enough to really haggle so he sicked the dealship manager
> on me... manager was a slick dude in the sales sense, but we had a
> personality conflict, and while in terms of the sale itself I made out
> like a bandit, he made me feel like a real asshole for being so
> inflexible in my color/options choices and for leaving him with so
> little profit, effectively taking advantage of a down time for car
> sales The whole process took a lot of time and haggling, which I
> hate doing, and the manager giving me the evil eye and tone of voice
> made most of the experience unpleasant.
>
> The car before that, I bought my car through a independent auto buying
> agent who I came across advertising his services online, where I only
> paid him his comission if I bought the car with the VIN he identified.
> He was just a guy working from home who was willing to go straight to
> the fleet manager and "talk the talk" on my behalf. This strategy
> worked fine, he got me an outstanding price and I think I paid him
> $125 as a finders fee (I saved that many times over), both in final
> car price and my time. Now, that was in the early days of the
> internet, even before the web was popularized. Now, I have no trouble
> finding websites that advertise skilled buyers' agents that go
> directly to fleet and relieve you from the negotiating and interaction
> with sales guys or guidos as they may turn out to be. But I don't
> know if they are all the same or how to identify a good one since its
> been about 15 years since I've worked with a car buying agent.
>
> So... how do you guys buy your cars? I thought about just starting by
> sending them my "final offer" through the contact forms they have on
> dealer websites, and just sitting back to see if they bite. I'm in no
> rush to buy.


One other thing. That "making you feel like an asshole" is just a game they
play. Remember, they sell cars for a living. That's their "profession."
That's all they do. They don't build the cars, they just sell them. They
measure job performance in "yield." Yield is how much over invoice you pay.
They are not your friend. They just play that role for the sale. If you
want to make them very happy, pay sticker price. They'll be your best
friend.

If you really want the inside story, there's a book or 2 written by ex-car
salesmen (I forget the name). You'll have a very different perspective
after you read it.


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Old 28 May 2010, 07:13 pm   #8 (permalink)
Keith T.
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Default Re: Whats the best way to find out dealer's invoice amount?

On Fri, 28 May 2010 18:52:14 -0400, "David Z" <me@privacy.net> wrote:

>"Keith T." <kt277x@gmail.com> wrote in message
>newsue006df5qemllnfcv825dt7eshaobu75q@4ax.com.. .
>>I probably should have been more careful with terminology, when I said
>> invoice I really should have said "I'd like all available data to know
>> my exact position of negotiating leverage", but I think everyone who
>> replied understood what I'm looking for, so thanks for all the
>> feedback. I've seen a number of websites (Edmunds, Yahoo auto, etc)
>> that say they have this info, but I wasn't sure if some of them are
>> known to be more reputable or accurate than others. I would hate to
>> spend half an hour reading everything a website had to offered then
>> find out later it's info is biased through sponsorship from automakers
>> or something similar.
>>
>> But, you guys got it. Ultimately I care about dealers true cost.
>>
>> Hijacking my own topic a bit, but along the same vein, how do you guys
>> prefer to buy a car? Do you walk into the dealership impromptu after
>> doing your research?
>>
>> My last car I walked into the dealership after months of research for
>> a test-drive, intending to only drive but also get a feel for what
>> kind of deal I could scurry. I ended up buying and came out very
>> well, but there were two reasons for that... the salesman was a nice,
>> newbie-at-sales-type who had spent most of his career in IT and gotten
>> laid off in the dot-bomb... he was clearly new to sales and wasn't
>> skilled yet enough to really haggle so he sicked the dealship manager
>> on me... manager was a slick dude in the sales sense, but we had a
>> personality conflict, and while in terms of the sale itself I made out
>> like a bandit, he made me feel like a real asshole for being so
>> inflexible in my color/options choices and for leaving him with so
>> little profit, effectively taking advantage of a down time for car
>> sales The whole process took a lot of time and haggling, which I
>> hate doing, and the manager giving me the evil eye and tone of voice
>> made most of the experience unpleasant.
>>
>> The car before that, I bought my car through a independent auto buying
>> agent who I came across advertising his services online, where I only
>> paid him his comission if I bought the car with the VIN he identified.
>> He was just a guy working from home who was willing to go straight to
>> the fleet manager and "talk the talk" on my behalf. This strategy
>> worked fine, he got me an outstanding price and I think I paid him
>> $125 as a finders fee (I saved that many times over), both in final
>> car price and my time. Now, that was in the early days of the
>> internet, even before the web was popularized. Now, I have no trouble
>> finding websites that advertise skilled buyers' agents that go
>> directly to fleet and relieve you from the negotiating and interaction
>> with sales guys or guidos as they may turn out to be. But I don't
>> know if they are all the same or how to identify a good one since its
>> been about 15 years since I've worked with a car buying agent.
>>
>> So... how do you guys buy your cars? I thought about just starting by
>> sending them my "final offer" through the contact forms they have on
>> dealer websites, and just sitting back to see if they bite. I'm in no
>> rush to buy.

>
>The first thing to do is to decide what model, color and options you want.
>Do your research, test drive, etc. If you test drive, tell them up front
>you're not going to buy today. If they want to make you an offer, that's
>fine. Just don't sign anything or pay them anything on that day. Expect
>one or more follow up calls.
>
>Then look up the invoice price and find out what others have bought the car
>for using the Edmunds discussion boards and any other sources you can find.
>Decide how much you want to pay. When you're ready to buy, call a few
>dealers and make them an offer. Generally, if I haven't approached a
>dealer, I'll call and ask for the sales manager. My observation is that in
>order to get a good deal, you'll need to get the sales manager's approval.
>And in order to get a great deal, you'll need the owner's approval. So why
>start at the bottom?
>
>A lot of people have success using the Internet. Email them an offer and
>see what happens. I suspect you will at least get a call.
>
>Make sure you first negotiate the price without the trade in. Keep this as
>2 separate transactions. As I said earlier, the dealers make a lot of money
>on trades and know how to confuse you with the 2 transactions. If you can
>sell it on your own, you'll probably save a lot of money.
>
>One of the advantages of trading in is that you only pay sales tax on the
>difference in cost, rather than the full price of the car. That can be
>thousands of dollars.
>
>Here's how you can sell your old car on your own and still save those
>dollars. Set it up so that the guy who buys your car picks it up at the
>dealer on the day you pick up your new car. Arrange the deal so that it's a
>trade in of the old car. That way you only pay sales tax on the difference
>between the new car price and what you sold the old car for.


Thanks for the feedback. Yes, I like to withhold any notion of a
trade until the last possible second. In my case the difference
between private party value and trade-in is not so much (difference is
literally like one grand because I drove my old car into the ground).

So what I've done in the past that worked pretty well, is go in and
tell them no way in hell I want to trade, because I want to give the
car to my _________ (fill in blank with dad, wife, mistress whatever).

Then when it comes down to the wire and its clear they can't budge
anymore, I reluctantly say "well... I may get beat up for this by
_______ (person) but if you can give me ________ (halfway point
between tradein and realistic private party value) for my car, we can
sign the paperwork right now"... Honestly I only did it a couple of
times, but it was effective because usually the car I sell trade in
that's worth $5k or so is going to be on someone's lot for $8k a few
weeks later and sell for $7k, where really tradein is $4.5k and
private party is $5.5k... so they look at it like a bird in the hand
and another tick mark on the car-churn meter, profit on the trade-in
and reduction in risk of me getting pissed and walking out.
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Old 28 May 2010, 07:25 pm   #9 (permalink)
Keith T.
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Default Re: Whats the best way to find out dealer's invoice amount?

On Fri, 28 May 2010 19:04:59 -0400, "David Z" <me@privacy.net> wrote:

>"Keith T." <kt277x@gmail.com> wrote in message
>newsue006df5qemllnfcv825dt7eshaobu75q@4ax.com.. .
>>I probably should have been more careful with terminology, when I said
>> invoice I really should have said "I'd like all available data to know
>> my exact position of negotiating leverage", but I think everyone who
>> replied understood what I'm looking for, so thanks for all the
>> feedback. I've seen a number of websites (Edmunds, Yahoo auto, etc)
>> that say they have this info, but I wasn't sure if some of them are
>> known to be more reputable or accurate than others. I would hate to
>> spend half an hour reading everything a website had to offered then
>> find out later it's info is biased through sponsorship from automakers
>> or something similar.
>>
>> But, you guys got it. Ultimately I care about dealers true cost.
>>
>> Hijacking my own topic a bit, but along the same vein, how do you guys
>> prefer to buy a car? Do you walk into the dealership impromptu after
>> doing your research?
>>
>> My last car I walked into the dealership after months of research for
>> a test-drive, intending to only drive but also get a feel for what
>> kind of deal I could scurry. I ended up buying and came out very
>> well, but there were two reasons for that... the salesman was a nice,
>> newbie-at-sales-type who had spent most of his career in IT and gotten
>> laid off in the dot-bomb... he was clearly new to sales and wasn't
>> skilled yet enough to really haggle so he sicked the dealship manager
>> on me... manager was a slick dude in the sales sense, but we had a
>> personality conflict, and while in terms of the sale itself I made out
>> like a bandit, he made me feel like a real asshole for being so
>> inflexible in my color/options choices and for leaving him with so
>> little profit, effectively taking advantage of a down time for car
>> sales The whole process took a lot of time and haggling, which I
>> hate doing, and the manager giving me the evil eye and tone of voice
>> made most of the experience unpleasant.
>>
>> The car before that, I bought my car through a independent auto buying
>> agent who I came across advertising his services online, where I only
>> paid him his comission if I bought the car with the VIN he identified.
>> He was just a guy working from home who was willing to go straight to
>> the fleet manager and "talk the talk" on my behalf. This strategy
>> worked fine, he got me an outstanding price and I think I paid him
>> $125 as a finders fee (I saved that many times over), both in final
>> car price and my time. Now, that was in the early days of the
>> internet, even before the web was popularized. Now, I have no trouble
>> finding websites that advertise skilled buyers' agents that go
>> directly to fleet and relieve you from the negotiating and interaction
>> with sales guys or guidos as they may turn out to be. But I don't
>> know if they are all the same or how to identify a good one since its
>> been about 15 years since I've worked with a car buying agent.
>>
>> So... how do you guys buy your cars? I thought about just starting by
>> sending them my "final offer" through the contact forms they have on
>> dealer websites, and just sitting back to see if they bite. I'm in no
>> rush to buy.

>
>One other thing. That "making you feel like an asshole" is just a game they
>play. Remember, they sell cars for a living. That's their "profession."



I fully understand what you're saying. I am not in sales but I grew
up in a family full of sales-naturals. The only difference was my
dad, uncle etc. were good at what they did, because they left the
customer feeling like a winner instead of an asshole. THAT's a pro.

I'm not a sales natural, I'm a technical person but I'm orders of
magnitude more competitive (and far less diplomatic) than my pop. This
means I take very little shit but I'm a little too callous for my own
good. I call them like I see them and it's a little too honest for
some of these sales folks, so they don't react well to me when I do
get the upper hand. I'm used to it, I get the same shit at work.. but
I figure I will have plenty of time to be cordial after I retire

Really I've found that it's all in the repoire. I've met some
salesmen that were MUCH better than this manager guy, it just came
down to a personality clash in that case.

And yes, they do try to feel you out and play the guilt card or
whatever else they think will work and I don't fault them for doing
their job as best they can, I just reserve the right to make them
aware how transparent it is

>That's all they do. They don't build the cars, they just sell them. They
>measure job performance in "yield." Yield is how much over invoice you pay.
>They are not your friend. They just play that role for the sale. If you
>want to make them very happy, pay sticker price. They'll be your best
>friend.


That's exactly why I don't realy want to even go in the dealership and
let them even shake my hand until I've already been informed of both
the VIN#, the exact number of miles on the vehicle, and the
gentleman's agreement that it meets the EXACT specifications that I
tell them I am looking for. This is the real issue that got me in the
pissing match with the sales manager mentioned before... he wanted to
move a vehicle already on the lot, or wanted me to bend a little bit
on certain things like interior color.. Not happening... if I'm
paying thirty grand (the price in 2001, this one will be more no
doubt) or whatever for a car I will get exactly what I want -- and
they need to say sir yes ****ing sir would you like fries and a cargo
mat with that...this is what I expect from a dealership where I give
them two hours of my time which would cost around $350 if I billed
them what I billed my clients. This time, I do not want to give them
any of my time. They can tell me to **** off and it is less insulting
than wasting my afternoon.

>If you really want the inside story, there's a book or 2 written by ex-car
>salesmen (I forget the name). You'll have a very different perspective
>after you read it.


I haven't seen that book, but I read a very interesting article from a
journalist that went inside and worked at a couple of dealerships, it
was great reading. If you have references to the book I wouldn't mind
to check them out.
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Old 28 May 2010, 08:00 pm   #10 (permalink)
David Z
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Default Re: Whats the best way to find out dealer's invoice amount?

"Keith T." <kt277x@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:bij0065p0kp3scltc1j964obj7j617q5rv@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 28 May 2010 19:04:59 -0400, "David Z" <me@privacy.net> wrote:
>
>>"Keith T." <kt277x@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>newsue006df5qemllnfcv825dt7eshaobu75q@4ax.com. ..
>>>I probably should have been more careful with terminology, when I said
>>> invoice I really should have said "I'd like all available data to know
>>> my exact position of negotiating leverage", but I think everyone who
>>> replied understood what I'm looking for, so thanks for all the
>>> feedback. I've seen a number of websites (Edmunds, Yahoo auto, etc)
>>> that say they have this info, but I wasn't sure if some of them are
>>> known to be more reputable or accurate than others. I would hate to
>>> spend half an hour reading everything a website had to offered then
>>> find out later it's info is biased through sponsorship from automakers
>>> or something similar.
>>>
>>> But, you guys got it. Ultimately I care about dealers true cost.
>>>
>>> Hijacking my own topic a bit, but along the same vein, how do you guys
>>> prefer to buy a car? Do you walk into the dealership impromptu after
>>> doing your research?
>>>
>>> My last car I walked into the dealership after months of research for
>>> a test-drive, intending to only drive but also get a feel for what
>>> kind of deal I could scurry. I ended up buying and came out very
>>> well, but there were two reasons for that... the salesman was a nice,
>>> newbie-at-sales-type who had spent most of his career in IT and gotten
>>> laid off in the dot-bomb... he was clearly new to sales and wasn't
>>> skilled yet enough to really haggle so he sicked the dealship manager
>>> on me... manager was a slick dude in the sales sense, but we had a
>>> personality conflict, and while in terms of the sale itself I made out
>>> like a bandit, he made me feel like a real asshole for being so
>>> inflexible in my color/options choices and for leaving him with so
>>> little profit, effectively taking advantage of a down time for car
>>> sales The whole process took a lot of time and haggling, which I
>>> hate doing, and the manager giving me the evil eye and tone of voice
>>> made most of the experience unpleasant.
>>>
>>> The car before that, I bought my car through a independent auto buying
>>> agent who I came across advertising his services online, where I only
>>> paid him his comission if I bought the car with the VIN he identified.
>>> He was just a guy working from home who was willing to go straight to
>>> the fleet manager and "talk the talk" on my behalf. This strategy
>>> worked fine, he got me an outstanding price and I think I paid him
>>> $125 as a finders fee (I saved that many times over), both in final
>>> car price and my time. Now, that was in the early days of the
>>> internet, even before the web was popularized. Now, I have no trouble
>>> finding websites that advertise skilled buyers' agents that go
>>> directly to fleet and relieve you from the negotiating and interaction
>>> with sales guys or guidos as they may turn out to be. But I don't
>>> know if they are all the same or how to identify a good one since its
>>> been about 15 years since I've worked with a car buying agent.
>>>
>>> So... how do you guys buy your cars? I thought about just starting by
>>> sending them my "final offer" through the contact forms they have on
>>> dealer websites, and just sitting back to see if they bite. I'm in no
>>> rush to buy.

>>
>>One other thing. That "making you feel like an asshole" is just a game
>>they
>>play. Remember, they sell cars for a living. That's their "profession."

>
>
> I fully understand what you're saying. I am not in sales but I grew
> up in a family full of sales-naturals. The only difference was my
> dad, uncle etc. were good at what they did, because they left the
> customer feeling like a winner instead of an asshole. THAT's a pro.
>
> I'm not a sales natural, I'm a technical person but I'm orders of
> magnitude more competitive (and far less diplomatic) than my pop. This
> means I take very little shit but I'm a little too callous for my own
> good. I call them like I see them and it's a little too honest for
> some of these sales folks, so they don't react well to me when I do
> get the upper hand. I'm used to it, I get the same shit at work.. but
> I figure I will have plenty of time to be cordial after I retire
>
> Really I've found that it's all in the repoire. I've met some
> salesmen that were MUCH better than this manager guy, it just came
> down to a personality clash in that case.
>
> And yes, they do try to feel you out and play the guilt card or
> whatever else they think will work and I don't fault them for doing
> their job as best they can, I just reserve the right to make them
> aware how transparent it is
>
>>That's all they do. They don't build the cars, they just sell them. They
>>measure job performance in "yield." Yield is how much over invoice you
>>pay.
>>They are not your friend. They just play that role for the sale. If you
>>want to make them very happy, pay sticker price. They'll be your best
>>friend.

>
> That's exactly why I don't realy want to even go in the dealership and
> let them even shake my hand until I've already been informed of both
> the VIN#, the exact number of miles on the vehicle, and the
> gentleman's agreement that it meets the EXACT specifications that I
> tell them I am looking for. This is the real issue that got me in the
> pissing match with the sales manager mentioned before... he wanted to
> move a vehicle already on the lot, or wanted me to bend a little bit
> on certain things like interior color.. Not happening... if I'm
> paying thirty grand (the price in 2001, this one will be more no
> doubt) or whatever for a car I will get exactly what I want -- and
> they need to say sir yes ****ing sir would you like fries and a cargo
> mat with that...this is what I expect from a dealership where I give
> them two hours of my time which would cost around $350 if I billed
> them what I billed my clients. This time, I do not want to give them
> any of my time. They can tell me to **** off and it is less insulting
> than wasting my afternoon.
>
>>If you really want the inside story, there's a book or 2 written by ex-car
>>salesmen (I forget the name). You'll have a very different perspective
>>after you read it.

>
> I haven't seen that book, but I read a very interesting article from a
> journalist that went inside and worked at a couple of dealerships, it
> was great reading. If you have references to the book I wouldn't mind
> to check them out.


I couldn't find te book, but this one on Amazon looks pretty good. Read the
first review.

http://www.amazon.com/Buyers-Leasers...ref=pd_sim_b_3

Car Buyer's and Leaser's Negotiating Bible, Third Edition (Car Buyer's &
Leaser's Negotiating Bible) [Large Print] (Paperback)
~ William Bragg (Author)


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