Toyota issued at least 3 Drive-by-Wires TSBs earlier for 2002-03Camrys

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Old 27 Nov 2009, 08:51 pm   #1 (permalink)
john
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Default Toyota issued at least 3 Drive-by-Wires TSBs earlier for 2002-03Camrys

This is getting interesting. There were engine surge problems from the
beginning of drive-by-wires that Toyota issued TSBs to fix. That was
unexpected engine surges between 38-42 MPH on light throttle input:

"Although Toyota says it knows of no electronic defects that would
cause a vehicle to surge out of control, it has issued at least three
technical service bulletins to its dealers warning of problems with
the new electronic throttles in the 2002 and 2003 Camry.

The throttle systems on six-cylinder engines can cause the vehicle to
"exhibit a surging during light throttle input at speeds between 38
mph and 42 mph," according to one of the bulletins that was published
by Alldata, a vehicle information company. The solution provided to
dealers was to reprogram the engine control module."

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-f...,5254584.story

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Old 27 Nov 2009, 09:04 pm   #2 (permalink)
Hachiroku ハチロク
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Default Re: Toyota issued at least 3 Drive-by-Wires TSBs earlier for 2002-03 Camrys

On Fri, 27 Nov 2009 18:51:13 -0800, john wrote:

>
> This is getting interesting. There were engine surge problems from the
> beginning of drive-by-wires that Toyota issued TSBs to fix


I have a drive-by-wire Scion with the Camry engine. No TSBs. Find one for
me.



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Old 28 Nov 2009, 12:19 am   #3 (permalink)
fred
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Default Re: Toyota issued at least 3 Drive-by-Wires TSBs earlier for 2002-03 Camrys

john <johngdole@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:a19e56e7-b0df-4891-b542-4f31a23c31bc@x5g2000prf.googlegroups.com:

> This is getting interesting. There were engine surge problems from the
> beginning of drive-by-wires that Toyota issued TSBs to fix. That was
> unexpected engine surges between 38-42 MPH on light throttle input:
>
> "Although Toyota says it knows of no electronic defects that would
> cause a vehicle to surge out of control, it has issued at least three
> technical service bulletins to its dealers warning of problems with
> the new electronic throttles in the 2002 and 2003 Camry.
>
> The throttle systems on six-cylinder engines can cause the vehicle to
> "exhibit a surging during light throttle input at speeds between 38
> mph and 42 mph," according to one of the bulletins that was published
> by Alldata, a vehicle information company. The solution provided to
> dealers was to reprogram the engine control module."
>
> http://www.latimes.com/business/la-f...9nov29,0,52545
> 84.story
>


All to save money from doing it mechanically and give ABS. I wonder what
ECU programmers get per year. Not enough to get the good ones I'd hazard a
guess.

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Old 28 Nov 2009, 07:22 am   #4 (permalink)
Kevin John Putzke
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Default Re: Toyota issued at least 3 Drive-by-Wires TSBs earlier for 2002-03 Camrys



"john" <johngdole@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:a19e56e7-b0df-4891-b542-4f31a23c31bc@x5g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
> This is getting interesting. There were engine surge problems from the
> beginning of drive-by-wires that Toyota issued TSBs to fix. That was
> unexpected engine surges between 38-42 MPH on light throttle input:
>



If only you had the cash to purchase a Toyota. Too bad. Continue taking
public transportation. You are an IDIOT.


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Old 28 Nov 2009, 09:17 am   #5 (permalink)
Don Stauffer
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Default Re: Toyota issued at least 3 Drive-by-Wires TSBs earlier for 2002-03Camrys

john wrote:
> This is getting interesting. There were engine surge problems from the
> beginning of drive-by-wires that Toyota issued TSBs to fix. That was
> unexpected engine surges between 38-42 MPH on light throttle input:
>
> "Although Toyota says it knows of no electronic defects that would
> cause a vehicle to surge out of control, it has issued at least three
> technical service bulletins to its dealers warning of problems with
> the new electronic throttles in the 2002 and 2003 Camry.


I wonder if they consider software an electronic defect. If the computer
operating system allows multi-tasking, and if they use a lot of
conditional branching, it is possible to write software that cannot be
deterministically verified, only statistically. Aircraft flight control
software has developed deterministic rules for software. I wonder which
way the car computers are. I'll bet too that the car computers are not
redundant. Military aircraft are usually triple redundant, commercial
stuff quad redundant. Expensive.

I have a Prius so this is not just idle curiosity with me.
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Old 28 Nov 2009, 09:58 am   #6 (permalink)
Vic Smith
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Default Re: Toyota issued at least 3 Drive-by-Wires TSBs earlier for 2002-03 Camrys

On Sat, 28 Nov 2009 09:17:33 -0600, Don Stauffer
<stauffer@usfamily.net> wrote:

>john wrote:
>> This is getting interesting. There were engine surge problems from the
>> beginning of drive-by-wires that Toyota issued TSBs to fix. That was
>> unexpected engine surges between 38-42 MPH on light throttle input:
>>
>> "Although Toyota says it knows of no electronic defects that would
>> cause a vehicle to surge out of control, it has issued at least three
>> technical service bulletins to its dealers warning of problems with
>> the new electronic throttles in the 2002 and 2003 Camry.

>
>I wonder if they consider software an electronic defect. If the computer
>operating system allows multi-tasking, and if they use a lot of
>conditional branching, it is possible to write software that cannot be
>deterministically verified, only statistically. Aircraft flight control
>software has developed deterministic rules for software. I wonder which
>way the car computers are. I'll bet too that the car computers are not
>redundant. Military aircraft are usually triple redundant, commercial
>stuff quad redundant. Expensive.
>
>I have a Prius so this is not just idle curiosity with me.


The whole idea is a loser to me. Mechanical linkages are well proven.
What about short circuits, bad tracings, etc?
(I know squat about electronics - except they sometimes fail.)
The programming part regarding safety is pretty much a no brainer, as
somebody mentioned - touching the brake always says shut down the
throttle.
But even that is subject to switching pulses and microscopic pathways.
I especially don't like the idea of the ignition switch being disabled
or bypassed.
To think that Murphy's law won't kill somebody is pretty arrogant.
KISS is always the best option where safety is concerned.
A TPS is perfectly adequate to tell the CPU what the foot is doing.
The foot should be in total control.
Putting this electronic junk in to avoid floorpan holes and some
linkage is no different than saving 20 cents per car on that Pinto
gas tank design if people end up dead.
Really sucks when Beta testing is being done at the risk of lives.
Haven't been following this closely, so I may have something wrong.
But I'll be sure to look for a mechanical throttle on my next car.
If that's not available, I better be able to shut down with a
key/switch. Otherwise I'll stick with older cars.

--Vic
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Old 28 Nov 2009, 01:21 pm   #7 (permalink)
Elmo P. Shagnasty
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Default Re: Toyota issued at least 3 Drive-by-Wires TSBs earlier for 2002-03 Camrys

In article <64h2h591lc7ildra3k7bmsvrumn21fkip6@4ax.com>,
Vic Smith <thismailautodeleted@comcast.net> wrote:

> The whole idea is a loser to me. Mechanical linkages are well proven.
> What about short circuits, bad tracings, etc?
> (I know squat about electronics - except they sometimes fail.)
> The programming part regarding safety is pretty much a no brainer, as
> somebody mentioned - touching the brake always says shut down the
> throttle.
> But even that is subject to switching pulses and microscopic pathways.
> I especially don't like the idea of the ignition switch being disabled
> or bypassed.
> To think that Murphy's law won't kill somebody is pretty arrogant.


Race cars have a mechanical shutoff switch for a reason. I agree.
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Old 28 Nov 2009, 08:09 pm   #8 (permalink)
in2dadark
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Default Re: Toyota issued at least 3 Drive-by-Wires TSBs earlier for 2002-03Camrys

On Nov 28, 10:58*am, Vic Smith <thismailautodele...@comcast.net>
wrote:
> On Sat, 28 Nov 2009 09:17:33 -0600, Don Stauffer
>
>
>
>
>
> <stauf...@usfamily.net> wrote:
> >john wrote:
> >> This is getting interesting. There were engine surge problems from the
> >> beginning of drive-by-wires that Toyota issued TSBs to fix. That was
> >> unexpected engine surges between 38-42 MPH on light throttle input:

>
> >> "Although Toyota says it knows of no electronic defects that would
> >> cause a vehicle to surge out of control, it has issued at least three
> >> technical service bulletins to its dealers warning of problems with
> >> the new electronic throttles in the 2002 and 2003 Camry.

>
> >I wonder if they consider software an electronic defect. If the computer
> >operating system allows multi-tasking, and if they use a lot of
> >conditional branching, it is possible to write software that cannot be
> >deterministically verified, only statistically. *Aircraft flight control
> >software has developed deterministic rules for software. I wonder which
> >way the car computers are. *I'll bet too that the car computers are not
> >redundant. *Military aircraft are usually *triple redundant, commercial
> >stuff quad redundant. Expensive.

>
> >I have a Prius so this is not just idle curiosity with me.

>
> The whole idea is a loser to me. *Mechanical linkages are well proven.
> What about short circuits, bad tracings, etc?
> (I know squat about electronics - except they sometimes fail.)
> The programming part regarding safety is pretty much a no brainer, as
> somebody mentioned - touching the brake always says shut down the
> throttle.
> But even that is subject to switching pulses and microscopic pathways.
> I especially don't like the idea of the ignition switch being disabled
> or bypassed.
> To think that Murphy's law won't kill somebody is pretty arrogant.
> KISS is always the best option where safety is concerned.
> A TPS is perfectly adequate to tell the CPU what the foot is doing.
> The foot should be in total control.
> Putting this electronic junk in to avoid floorpan holes and some
> linkage is no different than saving 20 cents per car on that Pinto
> gas tank design if people end up dead.
> Really sucks when Beta testing is being done at the risk of lives.
> Haven't been following this closely, so I may have something wrong.
> But I'll be sure to look for a mechanical throttle on my next car.
> If that's not available, I better be able to shut down with a
> key/switch. *Otherwise I'll stick with older cars.
>
> --Vic- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -


Not crazy about DBW either. They seem to be installing 'more' hazards
in cars instead of eliminating them. I wonder if the Kia forte is DBW..
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Old 28 Nov 2009, 08:28 pm   #9 (permalink)
Mike Hunter
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Default Re: Toyota issued at least 3 Drive-by-Wires TSBs earlier for 2002-03 Camrys

The question should be it seems, what new vehicle on the market today does
NOT use FBW technology?

"in2dadark" <in2dadark@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:28032db1-874e-48df-8f34-dfc51f6997cb@r5g2000yqb.googlegroups.com...
On Nov 28, 10:58 am, Vic Smith <thismailautodele...@comcast.net>
wrote:
> On Sat, 28 Nov 2009 09:17:33 -0600, Don Stauffer
>
>
>
>
>
> <stauf...@usfamily.net> wrote:
> >john wrote:
> >> This is getting interesting. There were engine surge problems from the
> >> beginning of drive-by-wires that Toyota issued TSBs to fix. That was
> >> unexpected engine surges between 38-42 MPH on light throttle input:

>
> >> "Although Toyota says it knows of no electronic defects that would
> >> cause a vehicle to surge out of control, it has issued at least three
> >> technical service bulletins to its dealers warning of problems with
> >> the new electronic throttles in the 2002 and 2003 Camry.

>
> >I wonder if they consider software an electronic defect. If the computer
> >operating system allows multi-tasking, and if they use a lot of
> >conditional branching, it is possible to write software that cannot be
> >deterministically verified, only statistically. Aircraft flight control
> >software has developed deterministic rules for software. I wonder which
> >way the car computers are. I'll bet too that the car computers are not
> >redundant. Military aircraft are usually triple redundant, commercial
> >stuff quad redundant. Expensive.

>
> >I have a Prius so this is not just idle curiosity with me.

>
> The whole idea is a loser to me. Mechanical linkages are well proven.
> What about short circuits, bad tracings, etc?
> (I know squat about electronics - except they sometimes fail.)
> The programming part regarding safety is pretty much a no brainer, as
> somebody mentioned - touching the brake always says shut down the
> throttle.
> But even that is subject to switching pulses and microscopic pathways.
> I especially don't like the idea of the ignition switch being disabled
> or bypassed.
> To think that Murphy's law won't kill somebody is pretty arrogant.
> KISS is always the best option where safety is concerned.
> A TPS is perfectly adequate to tell the CPU what the foot is doing.
> The foot should be in total control.
> Putting this electronic junk in to avoid floorpan holes and some
> linkage is no different than saving 20 cents per car on that Pinto
> gas tank design if people end up dead.
> Really sucks when Beta testing is being done at the risk of lives.
> Haven't been following this closely, so I may have something wrong.
> But I'll be sure to look for a mechanical throttle on my next car.
> If that's not available, I better be able to shut down with a
> key/switch. Otherwise I'll stick with older cars.
>
> --Vic- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -


Not crazy about DBW either. They seem to be installing 'more' hazards
in cars instead of eliminating them. I wonder if the Kia forte is DBW..


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Old 29 Nov 2009, 04:58 pm   #10 (permalink)
Wayne
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Default Re: Toyota issued at least 3 Drive-by-Wires TSBs earlier for 2002-03 Camrys


"Mike Hunter" <Mikehunt2@lycos,com> wrote in message
news:4b11dc50$0$14195$ce5e7886@news-radius.ptd.net...
> The question should be it seems, what new vehicle on the market today does
> NOT use FBW technology?
>
> "in2dadark" <in2dadark@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:28032db1-874e-48df-8f34-dfc51f6997cb@r5g2000yqb.googlegroups.com...
> On Nov 28, 10:58 am, Vic Smith <thismailautodele...@comcast.net>
> wrote:
>> On Sat, 28 Nov 2009 09:17:33 -0600, Don Stauffer
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> <stauf...@usfamily.net> wrote:
>> >john wrote:
>> >> This is getting interesting. There were engine surge problems from the
>> >> beginning of drive-by-wires that Toyota issued TSBs to fix. That was
>> >> unexpected engine surges between 38-42 MPH on light throttle input:

>>
>> >> "Although Toyota says it knows of no electronic defects that would
>> >> cause a vehicle to surge out of control, it has issued at least three
>> >> technical service bulletins to its dealers warning of problems with
>> >> the new electronic throttles in the 2002 and 2003 Camry.

>>
>> >I wonder if they consider software an electronic defect. If the computer
>> >operating system allows multi-tasking, and if they use a lot of
>> >conditional branching, it is possible to write software that cannot be
>> >deterministically verified, only statistically. Aircraft flight control
>> >software has developed deterministic rules for software. I wonder which
>> >way the car computers are. I'll bet too that the car computers are not
>> >redundant. Military aircraft are usually triple redundant, commercial
>> >stuff quad redundant. Expensive.

>>
>> >I have a Prius so this is not just idle curiosity with me.

>>
>> The whole idea is a loser to me. Mechanical linkages are well proven.
>> What about short circuits, bad tracings, etc?
>> (I know squat about electronics - except they sometimes fail.)
>> The programming part regarding safety is pretty much a no brainer, as
>> somebody mentioned - touching the brake always says shut down the
>> throttle.
>> But even that is subject to switching pulses and microscopic pathways.
>> I especially don't like the idea of the ignition switch being disabled
>> or bypassed.
>> To think that Murphy's law won't kill somebody is pretty arrogant.
>> KISS is always the best option where safety is concerned.
>> A TPS is perfectly adequate to tell the CPU what the foot is doing.
>> The foot should be in total control.
>> Putting this electronic junk in to avoid floorpan holes and some
>> linkage is no different than saving 20 cents per car on that Pinto
>> gas tank design if people end up dead.
>> Really sucks when Beta testing is being done at the risk of lives.
>> Haven't been following this closely, so I may have something wrong.
>> But I'll be sure to look for a mechanical throttle on my next car.
>> If that's not available, I better be able to shut down with a
>> key/switch. Otherwise I'll stick with older cars.
>>
>> --Vic- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -

>
> Not crazy about DBW either. They seem to be installing 'more' hazards
> in cars instead of eliminating them. I wonder if the Kia forte is DBW..
>

The mechanical linkages also have problems. On one car, I had a rubber plug
come loose in the engine compartment, and wedge into the accelerator
linkage. On another car, the cable travel stopped before the accelerator
bottomed out. When pushing down hard, I popped the end off the cable, and
the cable was spring loaded to full throttle. YMMV.


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