Toyota stalling may be linked to on-board computers, electroniccontrol module

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Old 06 Dec 2009, 01:02 pm   #1 (permalink)
john
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Default Toyota stalling may be linked to on-board computers, electroniccontrol module

Yeah, I think all the recent problems are likely computer related.
These ECUs just aren't up to their tasks.

The problem, according to NHTSA, may be linked to onboard computers.
"The agency indicates
the problem could be linked to the onboard computer, or electronic
control module. "


http://www.detroitnews.com/article/2...-Toyota-models
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Old 06 Dec 2009, 01:15 pm   #2 (permalink)
dr_jeff
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Default Re: Toyota stalling may be linked to on-board computers, electroniccontrol module

john wrote:
> Yeah, I think all the recent problems are likely computer related.
> These ECUs just aren't up to their tasks.


Really. The ECUs definitely have problems, but please show us a better
way that doesn't involve electronics. Carbs worked well, but wasted
fuel. Without electronics, are air would be dirtier, we would use more fuel.

Please suggest a better way.

Jeff

> The problem, according to NHTSA, may be linked to onboard computers.
> "The agency indicates
> the problem could be linked to the onboard computer, or electronic
> control module. "
>
>
> http://www.detroitnews.com/article/2...-Toyota-models

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Old 06 Dec 2009, 01:33 pm   #3 (permalink)
FatterDumber& Happier Moe
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Default Re: Toyota stalling may be linked to on-board computers, electroniccontrol module

dr_jeff wrote:
> john wrote:
>> Yeah, I think all the recent problems are likely computer related.
>> These ECUs just aren't up to their tasks.

>
> Really. The ECUs definitely have problems, but please show us a better
> way that doesn't involve electronics. Carbs worked well, but wasted
> fuel. Without electronics, are air would be dirtier, we would use more
> fuel.
>
> Please suggest a better way.
>
> Jeff
>
>> The problem, according to NHTSA, may be linked to onboard computers.
>> "The agency indicates
>> the problem could be linked to the onboard computer, or electronic
>> control module. "
>>
>>
>> http://www.detroitnews.com/article/2...-Toyota-models
>>


Carburetors worked well? How soon we forget. Hard starting in the
winter, flooding in the summer, the cars had to run over rich when cold
so they would stay running, sticking chokes, worn accelerator pumps,
carburetor kits, adjusting idle speed and mixture, those were the good
old days. Starters seldom made it to 60,000 miles, go back a little
further, points, condensers, tune ups, spark plugs every 10K miles.
Give me the computers and electronics any day, well except for this
electric/electronic steering thing, I'm not so sure about that, but come
to think of it, I wasn't so sure about electronic fuel injection when
it came out.
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Old 06 Dec 2009, 01:48 pm   #4 (permalink)
dr_jeff
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Default Re: Toyota stalling may be linked to on-board computers, electroniccontrol module

FatterDumber& Happier Moe wrote:
> dr_jeff wrote:
>> john wrote:
>>> Yeah, I think all the recent problems are likely computer related.
>>> These ECUs just aren't up to their tasks.

>>
>> Really. The ECUs definitely have problems, but please show us a better
>> way that doesn't involve electronics. Carbs worked well, but wasted
>> fuel. Without electronics, are air would be dirtier, we would use more
>> fuel.
>>
>> Please suggest a better way.
>>
>> Jeff
>>
>>> The problem, according to NHTSA, may be linked to onboard computers.
>>> "The agency indicates
>>> the problem could be linked to the onboard computer, or electronic
>>> control module. "
>>>
>>>
>>> http://www.detroitnews.com/article/2...-Toyota-models
>>>

>
> Carburetors worked well? How soon we forget. Hard starting in the
> winter, flooding in the summer, the cars had to run over rich when cold
> so they would stay running, sticking chokes, worn accelerator pumps,
> carburetor kits, adjusting idle speed and mixture, those were the good
> old days. Starters seldom made it to 60,000 miles, go back a little
> further, points, condensers, tune ups, spark plugs every 10K miles. Give
> me the computers and electronics any day, well except for this
> electric/electronic steering thing, I'm not so sure about that, but come
> to think of it, I wasn't so sure about electronic fuel injection when
> it came out.


You made my point exactly. Carbs did work well compared to the
alternatives, though. They were also a pain in the back. And, they
helped me go to college (my dad had an autoparts store). Let's not
forget how the carbs help gas get into the oil, which sold more oil.
And, helped destroy bearings, which was my bread and butter (literally).

Jeff
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Old 06 Dec 2009, 01:51 pm   #5 (permalink)
Nate Nagel
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Default Re: Toyota stalling may be linked to on-board computers, electroniccontrol module

FatterDumber& Happier Moe wrote:
> dr_jeff wrote:
>> john wrote:
>>> Yeah, I think all the recent problems are likely computer related.
>>> These ECUs just aren't up to their tasks.

>>
>> Really. The ECUs definitely have problems, but please show us a better
>> way that doesn't involve electronics. Carbs worked well, but wasted
>> fuel. Without electronics, are air would be dirtier, we would use more
>> fuel.
>>
>> Please suggest a better way.
>>
>> Jeff
>>
>>> The problem, according to NHTSA, may be linked to onboard computers.
>>> "The agency indicates
>>> the problem could be linked to the onboard computer, or electronic
>>> control module. "
>>>
>>>
>>> http://www.detroitnews.com/article/2...-Toyota-models
>>>

>
> Carburetors worked well? How soon we forget. Hard starting in the
> winter, flooding in the summer, the cars had to run over rich when cold
> so they would stay running, sticking chokes, worn accelerator pumps,
> carburetor kits, adjusting idle speed and mixture, those were the good
> old days. Starters seldom made it to 60,000 miles, go back a little
> further, points, condensers, tune ups, spark plugs every 10K miles. Give
> me the computers and electronics any day, well except for this
> electric/electronic steering thing, I'm not so sure about that, but come
> to think of it, I wasn't so sure about electronic fuel injection when
> it came out.


I have no problem with electronics, I wish they were just a little more
robust.

And I remember carbs too, but I don't remember having all that many
problems with them. Only one that really sucked was the 2bbl Rochester
on my dad's Chevy pickup; eventually replaced it with a Q-jet so it
didn't have to be kitted every year. Like clockwork, about a year after
you kitted it, the float would start sticking to the bottom of the bowl.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel
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Old 06 Dec 2009, 04:56 pm   #6 (permalink)
Vic Smith
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Default Re: Toyota stalling may be linked to on-board computers, electronic control module

On Sun, 6 Dec 2009 10:02:25 -0800 (PST), john <johngdole@hotmail.com>
wrote:

>Yeah, I think all the recent problems are likely computer related.
>These ECUs just aren't up to their tasks.
>
>The problem, according to NHTSA, may be linked to onboard computers.
>"The agency indicates
>the problem could be linked to the onboard computer, or electronic
>control module. "
>
>
>http://www.detroitnews.com/article/2...-Toyota-models


Doesn't seem much worth worrying about. 26 complaints for Corolla and
Matrix?
ECU problems can be very tricky. When it was about 10 years old my
'88 Celebrity went WHAM on the highway. Felt like the trans exploded.
But I didn't notice it even slow down, and all was instantly normal.
Took it to a trans shop the next day.
The trans mech took it for a ride and said there was nothing wrong
with the trans. Suggested the ECU had cut the engine off and it had
instantly restarted, and the torque converter had slammed.
Only thing he could figure from my description.
During the next couple weeks it died a few times at intersections, but
I could easily restart it. One time I came out of a store and it
didn't fire at all.
I didn't have a cell and was thinking about how to call for a tow.
Tried cranking it one last time. Started, ran normal.
Took it to my mech. He and his crew used it for a getter-car with a
scanner hooked up for a week. Nothing. I got tired of driving 40
miles in my wife's '85 Cav to get us both to work at opposite sides of
the city, and took the Celebrity back.
My mech Wayne wouldn't take a dime, said he'd see me later.
It had turned cold - October - the day I took the car to Wayne.
Didn't have another problem.
In April or May the next year I came out of the house on the first
really warm day, and it wouldn't fire. Had it towed to Wayne.
New ECU fixed it.
A couple years before that the '85 Cav had wanted to idle at 2 grand,
whenever it decided to. First car I had that I couldn't diagnose.
Knew squat about electronics. I was about to throw a throttle body
at it, but it died on my wife as she was coming home down Milwaukee
Avenue. Pretty heavy traffic and as soon as it stopped a couple guys
were there pushing it into the shop it had stopped next to.
That's how we found Wayne. Lucky. He did all my work for a few
years, as I was too busy and frankly didn't want to learn how all the
new-fangled stuff worked.
Wasn't cheap, but didn't rape you.
Best part is he fixed everything just once, and would never throw a
part at a car. Good find.
That was the ECU on the '85 Cav too, causing the high idle.
It was about a $200 job each time.

--Vic
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Old 07 Dec 2009, 12:46 am   #7 (permalink)
someone@some.domain
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Default Re: Toyota stalling may be linked to on-board computers, electroniccontrol module

In article <4b1bf8f9$0$5354$bbae4d71@news.suddenlink.net>, FatterDumber& Happier Moe <"WheresMyCheck"@UncleSamLoves.Mee> wrote:
>dr_jeff wrote:
>> john wrote:
>>> Yeah, I think all the recent problems are likely computer related.
>>> These ECUs just aren't up to their tasks.

>>
>> Really. The ECUs definitely have problems, but please show us a better
>> way that doesn't involve electronics. Carbs worked well, but wasted
>> fuel. Without electronics, are air would be dirtier, we would use more
>> fuel.
>>
>> Please suggest a better way.
>>
>> Jeff
>>
>>> The problem, according to NHTSA, may be linked to onboard computers.
>>> "The agency indicates
>>> the problem could be linked to the onboard computer, or electronic
>>> control module. "
>>>
>>>
>>>

> http://www.detroitnews.com/article/2...8/auto01/Feds-
>probe-stalling-reports-in-2-Toyota-models
>>>

>
> Carburetors worked well? How soon we forget. Hard starting in the
>winter, flooding in the summer, the cars had to run over rich when cold
>so they would stay running, sticking chokes, worn accelerator pumps,
>carburetor kits, adjusting idle speed and mixture, those were the good
>old days. Starters seldom made it to 60,000 miles, go back a little
>further, points, condensers, tune ups, spark plugs every 10K miles.
>Give me the computers and electronics any day, well except for this
>electric/electronic steering thing, I'm not so sure about that, but come
>to think of it, I wasn't so sure about electronic fuel injection when
>it came out.


uh, get a horse?
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Old 07 Dec 2009, 07:21 am   #8 (permalink)
ransley
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Default Re: Toyota stalling may be linked to on-board computers, electroniccontrol module

On Dec 6, 12:33*pm, FatterDumber& Happier Moe
<"WheresMyCheck"@UncleSamLoves.Mee> wrote:
> dr_jeff wrote:
> > john wrote:
> >> Yeah, I think all the recent problems are likely computer related.
> >> These ECUs just aren't up to their tasks.

>
> > Really. The ECUs definitely have problems, but please show us a better
> > way that doesn't involve electronics. Carbs worked well, but wasted
> > fuel. Without electronics, are air would be dirtier, we would use more
> > fuel.

>
> > Please suggest a better way.

>
> > Jeff

>
> >> The problem, according to NHTSA, may be linked to onboard computers.
> >> "The agency indicates
> >> the problem could be linked to the onboard computer, or electronic
> >> control module. "

>
> >>http://www.detroitnews.com/article/2...50334/1148/aut....

>
> * Carburetors worked well? *How soon we forget. *Hard starting in the
> winter, flooding in the summer, the cars had to run over rich when cold
> so they would stay running, sticking chokes, worn accelerator pumps,
> carburetor kits, adjusting idle speed and mixture, those were the good
> old days. *Starters seldom made it to 60,000 miles, go back a little
> further, points, condensers, tune ups, spark plugs every 10K miles.
> Give me the computers and electronics any day, well except for this
> electric/electronic steering thing, I'm not so sure about that, but come
> to think of it, *I wasn't so sure about electronic fuel injection when
> it came out.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -


Eh duh, carbs suck compared to injection in every regard especialy
pollution, what ever the issue it needs to de fixed, I think it will
cost toyota quite a bit eventualy, but how many of these runaway
claims are operator, or mat caused, probably most of them. They will
be the number one phony excuse for anyone involved in an accident, so
every day there are many phoney complaints made. This will be the #1
claim, yes officer I hit the wall, my toyota made me do it.
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Old 07 Dec 2009, 09:23 am   #9 (permalink)
Don Stauffer
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Default Re: Toyota stalling may be linked to on-board computers, electroniccontrol module

dr_jeff wrote:
> john wrote:
>
> Really. The ECUs definitely have problems, but please show us a better
> way that doesn't involve electronics. Carbs worked well, but wasted
> fuel. Without electronics, are air would be dirtier, we would use more
> fuel.
>


Why did carbs "waste" fuel? They used enrichment at high manifold
pressure, but so do FI systems. The last generation of carburetors were
quite good. What really is the difference between a carb and a throttle
body electronic injection system? One is controlled by a pneumatic
computer, the other by an electronic one. Admittedly electronic
computers can be miniaturized, and add more computation.

Essentially the carbs of the seventies and eighties DID have computers.
The amount of measurement of their environment and the amount of
control was remarkable. There were even the deceleration controls that
got rid of richness during trailing throttle. They were marvels of
fluidic computing.


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Old 07 Dec 2009, 11:46 am   #10 (permalink)
Jeff Strickland
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Default Re: Toyota stalling may be linked to on-board computers, electronic control module

The problem is that Toyota (and others) are using what is termed, fly by
wire.

In fly by wire, the gas pedal is not mechanically connected to the throttle
body. The gas pedal has a servo that tells the computer what the angle is,
and the computer then sets the throttle body with a stepper motor to match
the angle of the gas pedal.

Surely you can see the pitfalls of such a system.

Fly by wire is used in lots of applications and when it works properly, it
is lighter and more precise than the mechanical linkage(s) it replaces. The
military has employed fly by wire for the flight control systems on
airplanes for quite some time now. I'm not aware of any failures in aircraft
that have resulted from the fly by wire systems they use but I'm not saying
there are no failures, just that I don't recall any.

In any case, there is a very strong suspicion that the implementation that
Toyota is using has problems.

I read a report this past weekend (maybe it was last Friday) that the car in
San Diego that crashed while the throttle was stuck on full had been
reported to have done the same thing a week or two before the car was given
to the people that died in it. (The car was a loaner that the dealership
gave to people that had their car in for service.) A previous customer had
returned the car and told the dealership that the car took off on its own,
but the dealership found no fault with it. The customer is reported to have
driven the car into the dealership, so whatever happened to it was transient
in nature, which is a trait of fly by wire failures -- the system will
forget what the proper settings are supposed to be, and have to be reset. A
driver that had the capacity to shut the car off or shift out of D could
perform the reset that caused the system to work again, and unless somebody
was able to read a history file (if there was one) then the circumstances
that caused the error might never be found -- until the next person flies
the car off of an embankment at 120mph.






"dr_jeff" <utz@msu.edu> wrote in message
news:9IydnR0VWZFbaYbWnZ2dnUVZ_uli4p2d@giganews.com ...
> john wrote:
>> Yeah, I think all the recent problems are likely computer related.
>> These ECUs just aren't up to their tasks.

>
> Really. The ECUs definitely have problems, but please show us a better way
> that doesn't involve electronics. Carbs worked well, but wasted fuel.
> Without electronics, are air would be dirtier, we would use more fuel.
>
> Please suggest a better way.
>
> Jeff
>
>> The problem, according to NHTSA, may be linked to onboard computers.
>> "The agency indicates
>> the problem could be linked to the onboard computer, or electronic
>> control module. "
>>
>>
>> http://www.detroitnews.com/article/2...-Toyota-models



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